This week, Kate does a bit of rapping, we share some deep cuts around Eric's alcoholism, and we introduce a concept to help you think differently about your relationship.

Topics for this Episode:

➡️ What exactly is the relationship ecosystem.
➡️ Why blaming your partner is such a common practice.
➡️ Why rocking the boat is sometimes the best choice.
➡️ What needs to happen to master yourself, and your relationship?

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Eric MacDougall
So we're gonna talk about the relationship ecosystem today, we're gonna explain a little bit about what it is. And really how you can start to see things in your relationship differently, in order to make an impact. So this is really important, because a lot of times what happens in relationships is we have this idea, like our partner is doing something, and it's kind of messing up our lives. And we need them to do something different for us to experience something different, right? We'd feel so my partner is saying, you know, they're not attracted to me. And I need to somehow get them to change their mind so we can start having sex again. Or my partner doesn't like communicating with me. They're not a person who's just, you know, like, Eric, super emotional talking about feelings all the time. And so therefore, I need to try to get her to be different. So we can communicate, right. This is like the common problem that couples face. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
I'm gonna pull you into my life. So you can mold to be the person I want you to be.

Eric MacDougall
Exactly. And that's what we do in all relationships. So this is really important to understand is that you are doing this in every aspect of human relating, right? So from a very young age, you had relationships with your brothers, with your friends, with your sisters and your parents. And what you essentially do is within that relational ecosystem of two people, sometimes more people get involved in our relationship ecosystem, but let's say two people, each of the people in that system are trying to manipulate, it's kind of a hard word, but essentially, influence the other person to benefit them, right to benefit ourselves as individuals. And we've been doing this as human beings forever, right? What we typically do if you really think about how we evolved as human beings, human beings try to change what's outside of themselves. So they change the environment outside of them. And when they can no longer change the environment outside of them. They go in and decide to change themselves. Yeah, and that if that either means I need to evolve, I need to walk 10,000 miles in another direction. over the different, you know, temperature allows me to survive, etc, etc. Right? And so when you really think about that idea of kind of science and what it does to human beings, we do that in relationships, right? So it'd be in relationships, we're constantly trying to guilt, trying to convince, trying to encourage our partner to be more like who we want them to be to benefit us.

Kate MacDougall
Right. And it's also a way for us to keep ourselves safe, right? And not safe in the fact that like, you know, oh, there's a lion after me. But you know, when Eric does something when Eric comes up to me, and he's like, Hey, we need to talk, I automatically feel unsafe, my body responds the same way as if there was just a lion in the room staring at me. And so in order to stay safe, I need to find a way for Eric to stop needing to talk to me exactly. So I'm going to do everything in my power to be the perfect wife I think Eric wants me to be. And I'm going to work so hard at that. And I'm going to every single day, I'm going to do exactly what Eric says to do. If he's like, I want to, I want a bath I'm going to run him a bath, I want hamburgers, I'm gonna run to the store get stuff for him, because like, I am going to bend over backwards for him. And in doing so, I'm going to lose myself grow resentment towards you. And then so much for that ecosystem. Like, maybe I'm feeling safer in our environment

Eric MacDougall
or when you go need to talk, right? Because that's what you're driving towards trying to get me to not talk to you. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
it's like, okay, now he's not asking me to have conversations anymore. But now I hate him. Because I can't be myself around him. Like, I can't even like do anything for myself, because I'm so busy catering to him hand and foot. And oftentimes, this is done unconsciously. Like I'm not consciously saying like, okay, oh my God, what do I have to do to make Eric love me like, I just have grown this habit of like, bending over backwards for you for other people in my life. Just so I don't have to talk because that makes me feel unsafe. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
exactly. And it's human behavior, right. It's how we cultivate relationships. It's how we create secure in ourselves, we did this with our parents, right? If your parents in the home, they were always kind of yelling or criticizing you, what we would do is you would just try to do everything perfect. Or at least try to appease them and whatever, you could stop criticizing you, because when they criticize you, it feels feels crappy,

Kate MacDougall
right? And it's funny, because when every time you you, you will talk a lot about the relationship ecosystem. And in my head, I see this aquarium in a classroom with two frogs in it every time you talk about it. And it's a thriving environment, it looks perfect. It's exactly like the frogs need there in this perfect ecosystem. But you know, no matter what, no matter how beautiful the outside is, one frog might always be hiding, because they're not feeling safe in that ecosystem. Or the other one might be, you know, stealing his food all the time. And so every time you talk about the ecosystem, that's kind of the image that comes to my head, like those two frogs or two humans, in our perfect life we've created for each other. But there's still this like discomfort, there's still this like, wow, everything around me is so beautiful. It's so perfect. We have the perfect life, the white picket fence, the dog, the kids, like anything you can dream of we have, but there's still this, like a feeling inside of me, right? And I remember bringing that up in therapy, when you and I were going to therapy often saying like, I shouldn't be feeling this way. Like we literally have everything people dream of in our lives, we have money, we have the cars, we have everything, you know, but I still have this like feeling of like, unhappiness of frustration. And it isn't until we looked at our ecosystem system, how are you impacting my ecosystem, my life? And how am I impacting yours? And what does that impact have on our ecosystem on our lives together?

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and I think it's really important to understand this and create awareness around it, you know, so naturally, in the ecosystem, you yourself are the center of it. And this is where we kind of, you know, we want to think about like witnessing our experience, because your partner is at the center of their own ecosystem, right? But you're essentially living in the same ecosystem. And so what's happening is, you know, we are in a relationship. So we are interrelating all the time, you and I, you are at the center of your life. That is like the human experience, right? So you exist at the center of the story that you're making up about your life. I exist at the center of my story. Therefore, in our human relating, you're a secondary character to me. So you're essentially part of the environment, mind you a very close part of the environment, right? If my outer experience and to me the act to you, I am part of your outer experience. And so we're having two different perspectives here of the ecosystem. And a big part of the problem and like what you're talking about, right when couples get Stuck in now becomes the choice of, you know, internally, I'm not feeling good. And I have this fear of messing up the ecosystem, right? So like, I'd love to talk about how I'm unhappy in my relationship, but I can't, because that's gonna mess up the ecosystem. And if I mess up the ecosystem, then something bad could happen, it could poison the ecosystem. So what am I going to do, I'm just going to bury this, I'm going to keep it, I'm going to live with it, and I'm going to keep pretending. And in those moments, what happens is, now you actually become part of the ecosystem instead of an individual. So you are no longer at the center of your own story. Now, you are just part of the ecosystem. And this is where like, we get this incongruence in connecting to ourselves. This is where we talk about, you know, betraying yourself. And so if you're essentially just saying, I need to show up, I need to wear this mask, I need to act a certain way. In order to keep the ecosystem healthy, even though inside, it's killing me every single day. Something needs to change here, like that's a big red flag.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, when you've given the principal role to somebody else in your life, you're letting someone else run your life, run your ecosystem make the decisions for you. It's essentially like if in the movie, Spider Man, spider man decides to give the secondary role to the kid in the hall in the high school, like, the principal role to that person, like it just the movie wouldn't even make sense anymore. And that's exactly what's happening. When we lay let someone else take over in our relationship take over in our own personal lives. If I'm standing there saying like, in order to not rock the boat, I'm just going to be a yes, man. And I'm going to let everyone take make decisions for me, especially Eric, because he's the closest thing to my ecosystem. And it's very uncomfortable right now in my own life. So I'm just going to become a yes, then I'm gonna let you take do all the decisions, I lose myself individually, I get lost in the decor, and it's just then I lose control of my life. It's what it feels like.

Eric MacDougall
And this is the thing, right? Like, people don't even have awareness of that. So, you know, when we were really struggling in our marriage years ago, you know, you probably had this idea. Like, I would love to talk to Eric about, like, what he's doing. Oh, he's angry all the time. And but every time I do, he just blows up.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And And, oftentimes, and this is where, you know, professionals come to help. I remember when you were heavily drinking, and I knew it, like I knew you were drinking as much as you were, but you weren't being honest about how much you drank. You know what, you'd come home smelling of booze. And then you'd wake up the morning and say, oh, you know, having another migraine, I have another migraine. And I'm thinking in my head, like, Bs, man, it's called a hangover. But sure you call it a migraine, if you want. But this was all happening internally. And a big part of me wanted to talk to you about it. But another part of me exactly that didn't want to rock the boat didn't want to rock the ecosystem. Because if I didn't talk to you about it, we didn't get into these fighting matches about how I'm not an alcoholic, and I'm not drinking too much. And would you mind your own business and gas like gas like gas light. So I would just shut up about it, I wouldn't say anything. And that was detrimental to our relationship, the fact that I didn't put my foot down to be like, you have a drinking problem, you need to address this, which I did a few times. But it always blew up back in my face. Yep, those problems just got bigger, and deeper and harder to deal with them when we were finally, when you were finally ready to face.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and this is really important. And we can use this example, which I think is, you know, this idea of like trying to bring something up to your partner, and fearing the blowback, if you will, right? either a man or a woman, right? We all face it sometimes. You know, a man wants to talk about things. And all he gets back is the shadow, which is like the criticism, right? Essentially. And for a lot of women, when they try to open up to their husbands, sometimes they'll just get back anger, right, whatever. But this is a really important example. Because there comes a time when you essentially need to then change what's going on internally for yourself in order to impact the ecosystem. And so this is what's so important, right? Is when you're looking outside of yourself. And this is like there's benefits to this. But also you can like what we call getting out of sync right when I work with men. But there's two ways you can think about going in. So sometimes if you think about, you know, like, well, you're talking about earlier when you said like, I'm unhappy, like everything's great in my life, but I'm kind of unhappy. Now, some people what they would do in that situation is they would say I'm unhappy. So what I need to do I need to go out and like mess my life up. Right? It's, I need to like essentially put up this red flag, tell everybody in my life mess everything up. Because this perfect little life is all BS. And therefore my internal system needs to be spread into the outer I need to go cause some drama. Right? Exactly. Because I'm not feeling good. So I hate it that people are enjoying their life and pretending everything's good. Well, clearly it's not. And so in that moment, right, this is where you can get help. And now you need to actually go in and understand. Why is it that I'm feeling this way? Why is At that I have this life, right? That everyone around me seems kind of happy. But internally, something's going on. And this is why, like, you can get help, right? It's important to regulate, but like, why is it maybe it's my beliefs about my situation, maybe it's that I'm not going after the life I want, maybe it's whatever. But it doesn't mean that, hey, because I'm feeling this way, you know, everyone around me doesn't shouldn't be happy. And I need to kind of like mess everything up. Because that's what some people do, they essentially, do not feel good about themselves, and then jump out and sabotage everybody else. Right? Because we're like, it's unfair, that I'm not feeling good. So I'm just gonna spread this out to everybody. That's when essentially you need to go in and do your own inner work. Really, really important, right? What you're talking about in the other example, is this idea of getting out of sync, which is really important. So when you get to a place where, you know, you're burying everything you're keeping everything in, and the ecosystem has created a space where you're actually afraid to rock the boat. Well, then you need to then go in and say, okay, Kate, like, essentially be your own cheerleader and say, something needs to change, you're like, I actually need to introduce something new to the ecosystem. And understand that the ecosystem will change. Yeah, growth is freaking hard. Yeah. And as the ecosystem is shifting and changing, it will be uncomfortable,

Kate MacDougall
right? Yeah. But understanding going back to my frog analogy like that, that example of like, like, the plants around you are dying. And that's what that's what was happening in our relationships. We were in an ecosystem that was dying, like, the plants were dying, everything was dying, it was not a pretty relationship anymore, like the ecosystem we had created, or the idea of what it was, wasn't what was the reality around us? You know, it was affecting our kids. It was affecting your social life, it was affecting us personally, physically, emotionally, psychologically, like, all of those things were being affected. And at that point, like, yeah, we can keep pretending and living in this unhealthy ecosystem, but like, things are becoming toxic, like, and if we're not going to deal with it, we're not going to take care of it, the ecosystem will poison us. And eventually, it'll die.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and this is really important, because a lot of people might get some pushback here, which what I'm about to say, but in that scenario, right, where like, I was an alcoholic, I was emotionally abusive, I was angry all the time. You and I, together had both created that ecosystem. Right? And this is why people listen, in that situation, you were a victim of that circumstance. I don't wanna take anything away from that, right. I was a, I made a lot of mistakes and a lot of horrible things. I own all that. I'm not blaming you for it. But what I am saying is, we had created a relationship where that was acceptable.

Kate MacDougall
It was okay. Right? Yeah, it was okay for you to get up and yell at me. When you were yelling at me. I would sit there. And I would listen. And I would play into that. When you, you know, drank excessively, I would get up in the morning, I would take care of the kids, I would do everything I would allow you to keep living that lifestyle. Had I made a drastic change to our ecosystem? Had I said, get your s together? I am leaving. Yeah. And when you get your stuff together, come and see me. But until then, don't talk to me.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, like you need to get help. Or like, yeah, we are going to marriage counseling together, I will show up, I made the appointments, you either show up, or I'm going to move towards ending this relationship.

Kate MacDougall
Exactly. That would have been the healthy thing for our relationship ecosystem back then. It probably wouldn't have affected us as deeply as it did emotionally, psychologically.

Eric MacDougall
I mean, who knows? Right? Who knows, it's important not to go back into the past and think about doing things differently. I think the message that I really want everyone to understand is that you create an ecosystem to get together, right? And so you need to take responsibility for your part of the ecosystem. Right? And this is what psychoanalysis like really going in is all about is it's not in that moment. You know, there was probably a time when you're like Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric.

Kate MacDougall
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And everybody and everybody I spoke to like you were the problem. You were the problem. Eric is the bad guy, Eric, Eric Eric. And it was por que por que por que, but nobody was addressing the fact that like, Hey, Kate, you're being stupid by staying. Like, let's be honest here, like you're a part of this problem. And like,

Eric MacDougall
also, like, let's talk about the fear of leaving. Let's talk about what that means to you. Let's open that up. Yeah. So we can dive deeper into it. Because, you know, the solution might not be to end the relationship. No, no, but something needs to change. Yes. And so let's talk about the fear that you have of changing, like, let's go, let's go down that road, right, and kind of walk it and imagine what that would be like. Well, I'm really afraid that then Eric's gonna make a drastic decision to file for divorce. And it's going to be a really messy divorce. Yeah, yada. Like, yeah, we all have these fears. Absolutely. And those fears are what are preventing us from getting out of sync and changing up an unhealthy ecosystem. And so when we're talking about that situation, specifically, it's really important understand that it as a couple, right? When you're relating, you create that ecosystem together. So if you are, you know a person where you know, maybe you're a man who's in a relationship, and your wife is constantly criticizing you, she's constantly berating you. She's constantly telling you how horrible and how much of a baby you are, and all these things, and you're just sitting there taking it. Well, the your party you're playing in that ecosystem is you do not have boundaries, right? Like, you need to understand that, hey, when you speak to me this way, I'm going to walk away, I'm going to take some time for myself, I will not be spoken to this way. Therefore the response to you speaking into that way, is me warning, and then walking away. And I will, if you follow me, I will drop in my truck, and I will leave the home. And then I will come back and in an hour. And so that is your part of relating and ecosystem. Now you don't have to go to that extreme. It's possible when you say, hey, I really don't appreciate when you talk to me that way, it impacts me and I really can't listen to you. So at that moment, when you're saying these words to me, you need to understand that I am like, like glazing over Yeah, nothing gets through. So if you want to continue to waste your breath, and yell and scream, go for it. But to me, nothing is reality after that. I'm just in my own little bubble. And so just so you know, that's happening. Yeah. And that could be a way that you essentially interact with the ecosystem, right? Do something different. And so this is really what I'm saying, I'm not trying to place blame on anyone. I'm not saying that, you know, you're bad. And you need to do something differently. But what I am really want people to understand is that a relationship exists with two people. And they are interrelating and creating this ecosystem. And what typically happens is in the beginning, we spend most of our time looking outside of ourselves to create change. We try to change our partner, you know, how many years did you try to get me to stop drinking? If only I get Eric, stop drinking. This is it, he just needs to be drinking, he needs some drinking, he stopped drinking

Kate MacDougall
when I stopped drinking, our relationship will be better, right? That wasn't true. You know? Yes. That would have helped. Yep. It definitely wasn't a little bit. It did. But there was more problems. Exactly. There was loads and loads of baggage there that we needed to unpack. The drinking was a small detail in our story.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And if you think about, you know, our journey, and this is for everybody to really, maybe help you frame it. But after Kate's, you know, started looking okay, when I stopped drinking, while just drinking, okay, when I stop being angry, well, I just stopped being angry. And when I did all these things outwardly, right, which really, I was doing for myself, right? I just like did not like the man that I was. So I was doing a lot of the stuff myself, and it was benefiting our ecosystem. There was there came a point where you had to face yourself and say, I have been living in the shadow of Eric, not only the shadow of Eric, I've been living in the shadow of a man my entire life. Right? And now I get to go inwards and challenge myself and say, what is it like for me to step out and be my own woman? Right, be strong be an equal in this relationship to stop saying, oh, you know, Eric's the man and based on the belief of patriarchy, like he's the boss, and I'm behind him. And instead of being like, Okay, well, okay, you got to face yourself, you got to take responsibility. You got to take leadership, you got to challenge Eric, you got to ask for what you want. Yeah, you got to be part of creating this life.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And and that was such a deep seated belief in me. And it still is at some point. So it's still sneaks out and it plays out. And I'm like, oh, there it is. But because I have awareness around it. It's not as difficult anymore. But for me, that was the biggest part of my journey was realizing like, exactly what I was talking about. I have this perfect life, I have a almost perfect husband. Perfect. Not, not Don't, don't want to make it perfect. Yeah, you gotta walk out of this room, if your head's too swollen, we're never gonna be able to walk out of here. But I needed to look inwards and be like, there's still something there's still that pit in my stomach that like, but I have towards this relationship. And I needed to get years of help years of assistance through therapy, coaching friends, like, just to find Kate again. And yeah, I could blame Eric. And the reason I'm like, this is because of Eric. And the reason I'm like that is because of my dad and, and the patriarchy and my parents this and blame all of the ecosystems I've ever been part of. But the truth is, until you face yourself and who you are, and how you're showing up in all of these different ecosystems, all of those ecosystem ecosystems won't adhere to you because you don't even know where you fit into these

Eric MacDougall
places. Yeah, that's right. You're just you're just a part of those ecosystems. That's it.

Kate MacDougall
If I'm a frog, and I don't know, I'm supposed to eat flies. I'm gonna die of hunger. So I need to figure out what is it that I need to do as a woman in this world? Who is Kate and how does she fit into this ecosystem? And it was when it was Discovering that that actually healed our marriage. Yes, Eric had all of these, you know, habits and things like that. And it was so easy for me to point the blame towards you. It's what humans do. Right? Right. Totally normal. Yeah. But even after you became the perfect husband, for me, there was still this. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, there's something out there something up. And it wasn't until I found myself that our relationship is thriving.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I love that you said that in such a great way to end. And, you know, from my perspective, this is where we kind of get into this idea, which is so so important, is that on those days, when you're struggling, and you're doing this stuff, the old me would have totally been like, you know, okay, I'm gonna jump in, I'm gonna deal with everything and make sure that you're happy. Because essentially, seeing you struggle within our ecosystem, it messes with me, right? And so that is, then my journey, right? Of like, when we're struggling, we're both doing it right. When I struggle, it's hard for you not to come in and be like, I need to, like, be happy and make sure Eric's all great. Yeah, exactly. But now what happens is, you know, oh, Eric, has total right, or Kate has a right to be exactly as she is within our ecosystem. And what I need to do in those moments, is instead of going out and trying to change, Kate, because it makes me uncomfortable, because my ecosystems are making me uncomfortable, because my wife is maybe down or having a hard time. Well, now I go in and they say, Eric, how can you grow yourself to be able to create a space for your wife to be exactly who she is right now?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, right. And the more you're yourself in your own ecosystem, the more you show up as your authentic self, the more your partner will trust that on days, where you just having an off day, listen, we're human, right, we have off days. On days, where you're having an off day, your partner is going to trust that you're either going to ask for what you need, ask for what you want, or that you're going to come around and do whatever it needs to you need to do to take care of yourself. But in order for you for that trust to happen, you need to learn how to deal with yourself in your own ecosystem, and show that time after time to your spouse. This isn't something that happens overnight. Yeah, this is years and years of getting to know yourself, getting to practice understanding that I'm changing. When I had kids, I changed my whole ecosystem turned upside down. Exactly. still evolving. Yeah, just the other day, you were saying like, Man, I'm not as young as I used to be, I'm starting to feel it in my body. Well, you're gonna have to learn to modify your own ecosystem. And I can't help you with that you're going to have to learn to modify your own ecosystem to fit into this new, older body. You're living in

Eric MacDougall
jujitsu with 20 year olds, it's not fun. Anyways, yeah, I love that message. And I hope this episode was valuable to you all, because I really want you to kind of step outside yourself and understand that you are part of this ecosystem, you are playing your part. So before you go over to your partner and think about what they need to do differently, really look inwards and think about your side of the street and ask yourself, what is preventing me from having the relationship that I want, right? How am I playing my part in this relationship? How am I standing in the way of creating what I want, maybe it's you're a little too meek, maybe you're holding things in, maybe you're not being honest. Maybe you're afraid to rock the boat, right? Or maybe you're just angry all the time, and you're actually not having a lot of fun. Whatever it is, think about that, before you end up looking over to your partner side and saying hey, you need to do something more to benefit me which to be honest, is typically where we go because that's low hanging fruit. And so we want to go his go with a little more depth.