123. Approaching a Defensive Partner with Tough Conversations

This week, Kate and Eric answer listener questions about communication! 

Topics
➡️ Figuring out your conflict style
➡️ What are Marshmallow gloves?
➡️ How to own your own side of the street

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Eric MacDougall
Today, we're answering communication questions. I think we're gonna start doing a little bit more. You can actually go to evolvedmarriage.com. and just reach out to us, contact us and drop your questions. And we'll read away. And we're going to answer these questions in the way that like we would do to our relationship. So how do I revisit hard conversations with my partner, when they haven't ended well?

Kate MacDougall
oh, I know. I have the answer to that. I'm kidding. What does Kate do? She hides under a rug.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I think in a lot of relationships, there's typically one partner that's more than Maximizer in a relationship. That's me, right? That's kind of like pushing like, Hey, we gotta figure this out. It's uncomfortable. All that stuff, as opposed to you the minimizer who's like, hey, if we just sweep this under the rug, eventually, we won't have to deal with it. 

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I think a lot of people have like different fighting styles. And I think it's very important for you to get to know your own fighting styles. Google it, it's very simple to figure out there's legit like surveys you can take to find out what your site finding style is. But by knowing your fighting style, I think like for me, I'm like, a retreat or I don't know what what it is. Or avoid this answer avoider. Like I need time I need time to process what the heck is going on. So when you come up to me with a difficult topic, something that makes me uncomfortable. I am unable to answer you right then and there. I will do it because I think that's what you want. And I do it because I'm uncomfortable. And I don't want to revisit this later. So I would rather just say whatever I would comes to mind

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, cuz I was gonna say that we do it like in our relationship in an unhealthy way. Yeah. What that means is like you're kind of fawning. You're kind of like I'll just say I'll just a whatever. Eric seems satisfied. Yeah, exactly. So you're spending your time mind mapping and trying to guess yeah, what it is that

Kate MacDougall
I want. Yeah. But then the problem is I'll say okay, okay. Okay. I'll stop doing that. I'll stop doing that or I'll start doing this. I'll start doing that. Yes, and then I don't, because I didn't truly mean it because I didn't take time to digest. And really think and give myself time to make a plan of action, and then revisit the conversation. So I think for me, it's very important for me to be aware of my fighting style, to accept it, for you to know. Okay, this is how Kate is, Kate needs time to digest. So, Kate, here's the topic, I would like to talk about, blah, blah, blah, let's say we're talking about finances, you know, we're spending too much money. Okay. What I need to do, then, is to say, thank you for letting me know, I need to sit on this, let's talk about this, I need to set a specific time, I need to make sure that it's a time where I'm not going to be distracted, the kids aren't going to be around where it's a good time, or not, after a very busy day at work, you know, not as soon as we walk through the door, you know, like after we've had time to connect, and after we've had time to talk, and then we'll revisit the conversation, then we can talk about it. After I've had time to digest it, think about it, come up with some sort of commitment. And then, you know, I can actually say things that I will stick to and stick with.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and I really want to kind of jump into that. Because I think a lot of listeners are listening to right now. They're like, that's all great. Yeah. But like my partner's just insert, and they never come back like that. Yeah. So they're like, and I've talked about this, right, and then they never come back. And I really wanted to approach this a little bit differently. You know, what I would like to know, as you know, as you the person who typically withdraws. Like what do you have to do? In order to make sure that challenging conversations get had in our relationship,

Kate MacDougall
I need to put it on my phone in my calendar, I need to set myself an alarm.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I also like, I want to push it a bit further here. Because, like, I think for us, based on what we've learned is like, like, you have

Kate MacDougall
to come back, I have to come back. And I can't wait

Eric MacDougall
for me to like, bring it up again. No, overtime, you have to essentially make the commitment to say, I'm the one that stepped away. I'm the one that said I need the time. Therefore, I need to step back in.

Kate MacDougall
And if I don't step back in, and if you bring it up again, then my guilt goes up higher. Yeah. And then I'm really in fix it mode, then I will say anything to please you and the cycle continues. And the cycle continues. It's a very unhealthy cycle. So for me as the distance user, it is absolutely important that when I say I will revisit this, we will talk about this. Let me come back. I also can't leave too much time in between. Yeah, well, cuz then you forgot about it. Yeah. So when I say like, I need time, like, it can't be more than 24 hours, like, so a lot of times, it's I just need an hour to think about it an hour to digest. Or maybe the time that you brought it up just wasn't a good time, like we're in the middle of making dinner, and you're just like, frustrated. So you kind of brought it up. And it's like, I need to make sure that I can think it out and really plan it out. And then be very, you know, intentional about the time when I do come back. So for me, it took time, it takes practice, and it helped. When you remind me, you know, when I'm like, you know, you bring something up? And I'm like, Okay, I don't know, like, we'll talk about it later. You're like, when? Well, yeah, and I think about

Eric MacDougall
it, that's what I was gonna say we're like, how we started Yeah, and I play a role to to, in a sense, like, encourage you, right? So often what'll happen is like, if you make a commitment to come back, you know, eventually and talk about it, I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt, right. And so what I typically do is you're not jumping, like oh, you never do that, and you won't do it and blah, blah, and then like, wait for the next day like it's a test. And if after the next day, it'll come back. And like I knew you wouldn't use 10 o'clock the next day. And like, you don't want to do that. You don't want to try to push your partner to corner and like make them wrong. What you want to do instead is like, celebrate and encourage them like the other team. You know, they're trying to have this hard conversation with you. And being the avoidant partner, in this case, UK. Sometimes you need a bit of help saying like, Hey, it's okay, here. It's like, I love you. And I'm here. Yeah. And so great wasting that I usually encourage is just, you know, I give you the evidence, I just remind you like, Hey, I know you mentioned you come back, like I'd love to have that conversation. It's so

Kate MacDougall
important. And sometimes you'll mention to me like, Hey, it's 10 o'clock still good today, right? And then it's like, it reminds me like, oh, shoot, I have to think about this. I haven't really put any thought into this because I would rather just sweep it under the rug and never face it again. But by you saying that I'm like, right. Yes, yes. 10 is still good. And then I will go and take the time in that moment to really focus on my answer.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and this is really important because, you know, your commitment to come back, Kate, you're going to come back and have that conversation is not only a commitment to you, right? So you're not betraying yourself, but also its commitment to our relationship with so it build trust. You can build trust in yourself. Yes. And you build trust in our marriage and relationships. Yes. And so that's really important to understand is the commitment that you're making to come back is not just benefiting you, it's not just benefit your partner is benefiting both of you.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I think the biggest first step is communicating with your partner. This is my fighting style. This is what I need. When we're in an argument. This is what I need. And I need to distance myself.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, that's right. And from my perspective, you know, if as I'm kind of the Maximizer of the person, that's going to bring a little more intensity, I have to be aware to like, curb that to create a container for you where you can kind of step in, right, and this is what we talked about in our relationship is, oftentimes they're gonna have those conversations. It's like, I have to actually kind of not withdraw, but certainly like, not step in too hard. And I need to be able to create space that's inviting for you to step in. And then from your side, you need to step in, right. And by both of us working together, and understanding or fighting styles, or cycles of avoidance, etc, we're able to have these hard conversations. Right. So I think a great way to kind of start with this question is, think about your fighting style, right? Like, are you the pursuer? Are you the distance? Or are the Maximizer minimizer or whatever? And then think about, okay, I, if I'm the Maximizer, I need to create a container that feels safe to my partner to step into. And but if I'm the minimizer, I need to courageously follow up and make sure this conversation gets had and understand what it is I need for my partner, in order to help me have this tough

Kate MacDougall
conversation. Yeah, and I think you as a Maximizer, it's important for you to kind of read the room before answering how to proceed before bringing something up, you know, are the kids around? Is this a good time to bring it up? How is Kate feeling? Like? If you don't know, it's okay for you to ask me, you know, because I was gonna say, is this a good time to talk about something I've been kind of I've had on my heart, or is this a good time to bring up finances? And then it's like, I could, I could say, yeah, you can bring it up. But I'm gonna have to take some time to think about it. Or no, this isn't a good time. Let's not talk about it. Let's talk about it after the kids go to bed, or let's talk about it, after I'm done doing this thing I was doing on the computer, or whatever it is, right?

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I think for like a little cheat code, you know, what are things that we do in our marriages, often send you a text? Right? And so I'll send you a text, I'll kind of open up to you in writing and say, Hey, like this been on my heart lately? That's what I'm thinking. I would love to be able to, to have a sit down conversation for this amount of time about this specific subject, right? You know, so think on it and get back to me when we can create that time. Right? And that gives you an opportunity to kind of let it bubble while you're reading the text. And then maybe I'll come home that day. And my hit him a text like, Yeah, I did. So tomorrow night would be great.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And think about a time is the key here. Because as the avoider, I will answer that text right away. If you don't remind me that we should set a time for

Eric MacDougall
it. Yeah. If I'm just like, it would be awesome to do this. Your responses? You're like, yeah, that sounds awesome.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And then, exactly. And then I'm just like, oh, my gosh, why are we doing this big decision? I didn't know we were doing this. And you're like, I legit texted you the other day about it? And you said yes. And I'm like, I know, I was just saying that. Because I didn't I didn't know what I didn't know, instead of, can we set a time? And that reminds me, okay, take time to think about a case? And then come back with an honest answer.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And this actually brings us really well into our second question, which I want to jump into, which is, how do I communicate with my wife in ways that don't lead her to being on the defensive right away. And so this is really, you know, in vain of kind of a soft startup, but really, like, it sounds like one partner, in this case, the man is going or I mean, I shouldn't say that. Maybe a woman married to her wife. But this person is saying, hey, when I tried to engage my wife, she responds by going on the defensive pretty quickly. Right? Regardless of how I approach it, her stance is kind of goes automatically into defensiveness. So how can I communicate with her by trying to prevent her from oily defensiveness?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. Hmm.

Eric MacDougall
So yeah, so the first thing that comes to me is the soft startup and I think yeah,

Kate MacDougall
like, oh, man, why are these both these questions about Kate but yeah, it's just I think it's funny because I used to and still do sometimes get defensive very quickly. Yeah. I set up for struggle, struggle, not suffer. That's the word I was like struggle struggle with low self esteem, anxiety. So to me defensiveness is like an automatic response to anything or it could be like, forgetting about the sky being blue today. And I'm like, Why? Why is he thinking that? Did I say something that I say the sky was green like, oh my gosh, is he like trying to die say something earlier today? Like my mind goes all already like I've gotten armors up. And so I think me knowing that about myself. First off is very important. And to know that this is something I struggle with. And I think it's very important also that Eric knows this about me that he understands that I struggle with anxiety that I struggle with low confidence and that when I answer that way, it has nothing to do with him. It's very much 1001 things happening in my head that I feel I have no control over. But I need to learn to take control of my mind.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, I think, you know, me knowing that defensiveness is kind of a default stance stands for you, when you start to panic. Oftentimes, my go twos, you know, are really to open up a conversation with I statements. So it's a big one, right? Because typically what happens is, if you, if you are with a partner who feels guilt, or feels shame, quite often or, you know, has low self confidence, and in some places in our lives, like I'm the one that has low self, absolutely, yeah. And so I think everyone has low self esteem, insecure, whatever. But it's really important for you to understand, like, when I step into that, and I start up, I use I statements, because as soon as I use your name, you are even us, because you're part of the US, you automatically go on kind of high alert.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And something we learned about, you know, our approach to each other, like, especially Eric's approach with me, we kind of call it like the marshmallow glove approach, right? Because marshmallows are soft, and they're squishy, and they're kind of cute, and like, so delicious. They're cute. They're cute, little faces on them, I just want to be as marshmallow and squish it. Okay. So, so having marshmallow with gloves on, you're coming into the conversation already knowing that my spouse was most likely get defensive with whatever I'm about to bring up. So starting with, like, I love you, you're amazing. But the way you spoke to the kids today, made me feel insecure, about, you know, how, how we're raising them. And it's like, so I understand that Eric's not coming in with like, guns blazing like your sock as a parent, even though I'm gonna say that in my head. But it's like, I love you. You're an amazing mom, you do so much for the kids. You're great. But I didn't like the way you talk to the kids today. And it's very important that with a defensive partner, you're very specific, and you don't generalize things. And I was gonna say, I always yell at the kids, you always know that like, that's like, I know, I say, That's myself in my head all the time already. We're good. Like, we don't have to, like, go in like, dramatize things, because it's already dramatized and a default of partners had.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and I want to take it one step even further, but because I think it's important, there is a difference between saying, you know, today you were yelling at the kids, sometimes you will talk about your partner's behavior. But I think at that moment, it would actually be much more powerful to say like, Hey, today, when I was a kitchen, I heard a lot of yelling upstairs.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, that's true. Because then you're going back to your I statements, right?

Eric MacDougall
And then that's, and then so you can still talk about yourself by following that up by saying, like, I started to really get stressed out, I started thinking about, like you and the kids and kind of your connection. And I got really worried. Right? And I'm wondering if you can help me, you know, or if there's a way that I can help you in those times. So that maybe the yelling can be a little bit less. So what's really pouring understand here that I am entering into a conversation, right? That's the important part is like, this is a bid for a conversation, would you like to enter? Would you like to not enter? And what you want to be doing is really making the bid for the conversation as secure as possible for your partner. Right? Because what you're trying to do here is not like with a defensive partner, you're not trying to say, I need to get to this point, like to get to 10,000 steps with a defensive partner is like I need to practice the way I communicate in order to create security for my partner safety,

Kate MacDougall
security, right? And having a specific intention for what you're trying to say. You're always yelling. Well, what are you trying to say? Yeah, and what is it that you're stating clear? Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
when I'm in a home, you know, I say it a lot like, Hey, I struggle when there's a lot of loud noises in the home. I like to have a calm space in the home. So you can see like, I'm just saying that that's all me. I haven't said anything about you haven't said anything about yelling. It's all me right now. Right? So now it's like, oh, you're wondering like what's going on with me? You're like, oh, okay, so you might be starting thinking like, oh, what's he talking about? The noise? Is it that I yell lately and you're gonna start questioning yourself?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And usually what's going to happen is my mind will automatically analyze and quickly and I'll automatically only know Oh, it's because I was yelling. Hey, I

Eric MacDougall
love I love you said that because at that moment, after you share, like your observation was going on. You want to affirm you Your partner. So, because I noticed as soon as, as soon as like, we were talking, I was like, That is a trigger for Kate, she's gonna start to wonder what she doing right

Kate MacDougall
away, I'm gonna be like, okay, oh my gosh, I was yelling because someone so did this and like, what you're like you probably lose your mind to her. And

Eric MacDougall
then so in that moment what I would do like, not as you're talking like, before you even started, I would say, hey, look, I know, we've done a lot of work to create a calm home. Like most of the time, our home is amazing, and it's really calm. And I love that. I really love how hard we work to keep a calm space. I just noticed that today, around this time, or today when you and the kids were upstairs. It seemed like at that moment, it got really loud. And I just love to understand, you know, like, what happened was everything. Okay, can you tell me about your experience? Like what was going on that created all that noise? Because I was quite worried. And as you can see, it's just would you like to step in? And even the way that I framed it, it frames it in a way where you are going to want to engage?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, exactly. And it does. speaking like that, I my guards kind of go down. It's like, oh, he's right. Like, I don't yell all the time. Yeah, I didn't show up the best way I wanted to tonight. And I would probably answer something like, I don't know, I'm just like, tired. I need a break, I should have come down and talk to you. And had you take over with the kids. Like, I'll make sure to do that next time. Because I'm, I'm just tired.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And now that allows me to step deeper into this, because what a lot of people would do with this case, would be to kind of resolve and kind of get rid of the problem. Right? Which so a lot of people might be like, oh, good luck. I'm glad, like, maybe we can yell a bit less. Thank you. But what you're not connecting to, which is probably the most important thing here is my wife just expressed to me that she's tired, she's stressed, etc. So now there's an opportunity for me to step in and create connection. Hey, are you okay? Like, is this been going on for a while? And then you like, no, it's just been later today, okay? Is there any way that I can help you, like right now just to maybe help you feel a bit lighter and more relaxed? Because I'd love to do that. And so now you're actually taking this moment, which started as a pair like this, your partner introduced? Hey, this is why I experienced this and why I'm doing it this way. And then you're like, Oh, I'd love to help you. Do you want my help? Yeah. And it becomes a connecting moment, because you were able to, you know, invite your partner to step in, in a way that felt a little bit lighter, because it was focused on you and your experience,

Kate MacDougall
right? So really focusing on I statements, really focusing on facts, observations, specific examples. The way you speak, keeping your voice low, you know, the where you're doing it, like charging upstairs while everybody's yelling and what's going on. Like, I'm hearing a lot of noise. And I like come home, like that's not going to like, wait, let the fire you know, settle or go upstairs and just start taking over if you really need feel the need to take over in that moment, but have the discussion later.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I think another part to this, as we're kind of wrapping up, you know, the whole other aspect of it that we haven't talked about is that you also need to sit down and reflect on your part of the egos ecosystem, right? And so like, yes, there's times when you're coming really softly and you're just trying to open up a conversation, maybe it's a tough conversation for your partner, but you're doing in a really kind loving way, and they get defensive. But sometimes they're being defensive, because you're literally just accusing them or criticizing them or attacking them. Yeah, right. And so to understand, like, okay, like, Where will I separate those, okay, this instance, she was getting defensive. Oh, I noticed like five of the six times I talked to my wife, I come in with an aggressive stance, oftentimes, I'm using you, you I'm complaining about things. Yeah. And so naturally, based on her natural pivot, she would get defensive, just take time for

Kate MacDougall
the walls to come down. Yeah, and it definitely is practice. It definitely takes practice.

Eric MacDougall
But what I was gonna say too, is you need to own your side of the street. Right? So it's less about, like, my partner needs to learn how to get less defensive. It's like, I need to learn to communicate in a way that helps my partner calm down and open up. Yeah, so you need to understand like, how many times are you approaching your partner? And does it? Is it coming off soft? Or is it coming off intense as aggression?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and even though you're using I statements and being very like, gentle about it with the marshmallow gloves and everything, like if the only communication you have with your spouse, is to talk this way, and to say, Hey, I've noticed this, or hey, I've noticed that and hey, I've noticed this but there's never I love yous. There's never gratitude all the great stuff. It's never like conversations curiosity about just how their life is going. How are your friends doing? How's your job? Like? The only words you're saying to each other is Hey, I noticed this Do you need help with that? Can I like the defensive walls are gonna go back up because it's like the only time you talk to me is if you have something to say about something I did. Yes. And so finding the balance the sandwich

Eric MacDougall
yeah sandwich bag right beside which and I think like Gottman says that like the five to one rule, right? So five really nice things for every one challenging thing is that you're gonna have a great relationship. If you're sending five criticisms to your partner or complaints to your partner to one like, have a great day. You know, kiss you goodbye. Well, it makes sense to your partner is probably on the defensive, most of the communication you're having is about them and complaints. You have her

Kate MacDougall
acting directing. Yeah, even though it might be in the kindest, nicest way. It's still correcting and directing.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. Which is what led to a big part of our dynamic exam, right. I was excellent at correcting and directing your behavior and so good forcing control.

Kate MacDougall
I kind of got out of that. I love you.

Eric MacDougall
I love you, too.