Join Kate and Eric MacDougall as they explore key strategies for deepening connection and understanding in relationships, especially for men aiming to strengthen their marriages.

We chat about:
➡️ Self-Reflection in Relationships: Insights into personal roles and behaviors.
➡️ Emotional Balance: Strategies for individual and mutual emotional regulation.
➡️ Navigating Dynamics: Tips for managing anxious and avoidant partner traits.
➡️ Deepening Connections: Emphasizing the value of genuine communication.
➡️ Resolving Conflicts: Overcoming emotional gridlocks in partnerships.

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Eric MacDougall
Today, we're really diving into this idea of anxious and avoidant attachment. And this conversation came up for us because we really wanted to focus on helping couples understand this dynamic. and I were going to turn an analogy that I often use in the mastermind with a man or when I'm talking to couples, right. So in most relationships, typically, there's either an avoidant partner or an anxious partner, or there's both right. And so there's, you know, one partner is avoidant, and one partner is anxious. One of the big things to understand is that, you know, we talked about the idea of secure attachment, and I get it, like, in a lot of ways secure attachment is their present and a lot of relationships. But what we're talking about is, you know, for lack of a better term, like when things get challenging, when we fall together, those panic modes, these fight or flight modes, we often have kind of a default way of dealing with things, right.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, normally a healthy person, somebody who had a healthy upbringing will have their baseline is security, right? So secure attachment. So we're going day to day, we're acting very secure between each other. But as soon as something comes up, we have a default we fall to Yeah, and I think it's like one of four or five different types of attachments. And yeah, there's like the anxious one, that doesn't necessarily mean you're an anxious person, you have anxiety, that doesn't that doesn't mean, you know, just because you're anxious attachment style is your is anxious Lam your attachment style is anxious. It doesn't mean that you're generally an anxious person, it just means that in those moments, when that security is gone, where do you lean towards? Yeah, and I

Eric MacDougall
think it's just the way that they label exact style of attack trends based on what's happening, etc. So today, we're really in talking about this analogy and dive into, you know, what does anxious look like? What does avoidant look like, which are kind of the two big ones if you will, and how they have so much trouble playing together. Because I see a lot of couples where it's, you know, one person is this kind of the classic pursuer distance or dynamic, but it's like, one person is constantly walk, wanting kind of stepping in kind of, you know, moving towards that. And the other person is kind of always avoiding stepping back, dodging, guarded, etc, right. And so this comes from a pretty deep place within, and a lot of times these attachment styles and understanding them allows you to overcome your challenges. Exactly. And so the analogy that I often use is kind of the the two boats in the ocean, so you want to share, kind of jump in and share that. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
so as you know, as boats, you know, the boats are in the ocean, and the ocean is calm, stable, everything is fine. And the boats are kind of like, you know, side by side, just going along the course and everything's fine. You're good, right? When things are good, good, life is good, things are good. But then all of a sudden, things get rocky, right? So the waves are coming, and then you see a storm brewing in the distance, and you're kind of like, okay, so what will happen is those two boats will fall into one of the two categories. So you'll have today we're specifically talking about one of two categories. So you'll have the avoidant boat and the anxious boat. Yeah, what

Eric MacDougall
I want to really like really to bring it the picture into people's minds is like if you imagine it's like a single person in a rowboat. Yeah, right. So one person is in a rowboat in the middle of an ocean, OCEAN Have a bit of a big lake but yeah, exactly like what you're saying. When things are great. We're just rolling along fine. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
we're not we're side by side. Yeah. laughing together like, oh, yeah, everything's great. Sorry, thanks,

Eric MacDougall
James get choppy in a relationship, just like you get choppy in the ocean, then each person in that rowboat is going to respond differently. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And what's interesting is the way to respond can either be seeing a storm in the distance, so feeling like something might happen, feeling like there's something brewing, or either inside of you, or you're like, Oh, my partner's seems like they're in a bad mood today. So for some people, they can fall into the avoidant or anxious attachment style when they see something brewing. But for other people, it takes more time, they actually have to be in the moment where the waves are there. And they're in the storm, and there's thunder and lightning, and then they're like, oh, and then they'll be in their boat, either avoiding or Okay, thanks. Just attach

Eric MacDougall
it. I love that you said that. Because that's really important. Because what you're describing now in that in that ability to kind of wait for the storm to get closer, that's where the secure attachment happens. Yeah, right. And so if your ability is to essentially like, be in a storm, everyone has a different capacity, right? So if one person is like, Oh, my God, there's some dark clouds over there lose your mind, and things need to change right now. Well, that person probably has less ability to create secure attachment. And again, it's not like inherently in you, there's something wrong with you. It's a skill, right? Then the person who's kind of like, wow, these waves or something like we're going up and down, and you're kind of far from me, and

Kate MacDougall
all of a sudden, you're like, oh, actually, I'm in a major storm, I should do something about this response. So

Eric MacDougall
again, just think about that. I love that you said that. Because the amount of security you can create a relationship is going to be internal, like directly related to your resilience and your capacity to deal with challenging situations.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and there's not one that's better than the other, it really is an individual thing, the amount of time it takes me to react to a problem is quite different than the amount of time it takes you to react to a problem. I'm that person who will see a storm in the distance with binoculars and probably a telescope like the strongest ones you can find. And I see it from very, very far. And I'm already panicking, you're already like, oh, my gosh, we need to do something. Whereas you, the storm can be like, the waves are starting, and then you'll start doing something about it. Yeah. But I'm very much like, I have a little more trouble staying in my safety than you do. And that's pretty

Eric MacDougall
common for feminine core, right? And typically, the feminine core, not women, but people who are more in their feminine energy. Yeah, sure, they tend to lean into more prioritizing security, right? For their fear response is much higher, right? Right, than typically, the masculine is a little more about achievement, and moving forward and taking risks and kind of moving forward. So their capacity for you know,

Kate MacDougall
living with fear living dangerously living on the edge is

Eric MacDougall
a little bit higher. Absolutely. Right. And so let's, let's kind of dive into it. So if you imagine, you know, you can imagine you and a partner, you can kind of try to understand where you're at here, but really think about you where you typically fall into in one of these boats. So the first one is the anxious partner, right? So I'm in my rowboat, the storm is coming. You know, I can kind of see things are getting choppy. And as the anxious partner, my default response is to get closer. So if you imagine, you know, it's like, the the whole belief system that this partner would have is, hey, if we put our boats together, we actually have a better chance to survive this oncoming storm. Right? And so come close to me get really close to me because we have to be together. Yeah, actually, you

Kate MacDougall
know what, let me get in your boat. Right? Exactly. I'm gonna let my bow God let's just let's be in the same boat. I'm gonna sit on top of you. Right. And

Eric MacDougall
so that's kind of the anxious is when we're starting to feel panicky or uncomfortable, or really, what we're talking about here is when we feel the secure attachment waning kind of disappearing, the anxious partner will try to get close, they're gonna want to get proximity to their partner.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and what that looks like on like, let's stop talking about the ocean here for a couple minutes. But say, you know, Eric comes home from work and he's kind of in a cranky mood, and I can see that he's a little bit like, on edge and he's snappy. What I will do as an anxious partner, is I'll get closer to him like, hey, what can I do to help you Hey, is there anything I can do to help you? Are you okay? Are you okay? Can I do anything? Are you sure you're okay? Let me help you. Let me know. I'll make dinner. I'll do the laundry. I'll do everything tonight you sit down and put your feet up. Everything will be okay just please calm down like so I remember we need to do to get closer. Yeah. And to get back to that safety because right now there's a little turmoil there's a little bit of storm brewing in our ocean so me as a as my as an anxious partner, I will go see my partner and try to fix everything to get back to calm waters. But that can be very triggering to an avoidant partner.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And so if you think about it, that's I love that you said about the anxious because the anxious is always moving towards they're always coming up with plans. They're the partner who's always like, we need to do something, we need to talk about this, we need to deal with this, what's going on with this? Right? That's, that's the anxious partner, the avoidant partner has been different. Now when they see the storm, typically what's happening is they are kind of trying to move away. So they actually find a lot of solace and a lot of power in being alone. So they probably you had an upbringing where they had to really count on themselves to have to learn how to be individualistic, they learned that they couldn't really count on others all that much that other people were dangerous, right? Maybe you had a mother who'd fly off the handle, or dad or sibling, whatever. And so those people have learned to really take care of themselves. And therefore in moments of threat, they actually find that being alone is safer than being with others. Right.

Kate MacDougall
So if we go back to that boat analogy, the avoidant partner will see the storm coming, or will the bleep be in the storm. And they're gonna say, uh, holy moly, I need to get away from this boat, this boat beside me because it might bump into me or something's gonna happen. And it will put my boat in danger. So I need to go way over here and try to figure out how to get out of the storm by myself. And so what happens is when the anxious partner is going up to the avoidant partner, and they're like, Hey, come sit in my boat, we're gonna be good. The avoidant partners like, holy moly, leave me alone, because your boats gonna make a hole in my boat. And I need to be over here without you just please be quiet. And what that looks like, on a day to day like an avoidant partner that what that looks like, if we take the same example of Eric walking more, it's like it'd be like me walking into work from work and being cranky and being angry and whatever. Eric will come and see me and see that I'm like, not doing well and see that the waves are kind of starting in our relationship. And it's kind of like, oh, boy, what he will tend to do is back away and give me space. Yeah. Because he thinks that's what I need. Because that's what he needs in the moment. Yeah, so

Eric MacDougall
not just necessarily, in those moments, I'm not necessarily concerned about what you need. What I'm actually more concerned with is not rocking my own boat. Right, exactly. So when I'm feeling secure, I can step in and kind of allow you to kind of let go and blah, blah, blah, and I'll hold space for you, right? But it's when I'm not at a place where I feel secure. I'm kind of panicking myself, what I start to think is, oh, if I engage with Kate here, it's gonna be like a storm coming. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
he sees me, he sees me as dangerous. He sees me as like, well, this is unsafe, and it's gonna rock my water. So I'm gonna just back over here and try to stay in the calm waters, and not fall into her rough waters. And so I'm just gonna, like, let her deal with that and be alone. Like you're

Eric MacDougall
in your boat, and you're panicking. Why would I want a panicking person near my boat? Yeah, dangerous, y'all. Listen, if you've been canoeing, you know, it's like you've been doing your parents, you know, the one kid stands up, starts getting all excited, and your parents start losing their minds. And now you're gonna tip us all over again. Right. So that's what's happening with the avoidant partner, the avoidant partner is saying, Your energy is too much. And they often have two fears, number one, that they will get sucked into emotionally to a place where they will feel out of control. That's the big one for them, right, they don't want to feel out of control, they want to feel pain, they don't feel. And by isolating themselves, they're able to control that, right, because they keep all the pain out. Or they fear that they will have to sacrifice themselves to take care of you. Which means that if you jump into my boat, now, I can't even focus on myself, I actually just have to spend all my time taking care of you and calming you down. And that over time, it's exhausting to me. And therefore in order to protect this, you know, energy sock or energy drain. And again, this is like factual. This is just what the avoidant partner is thinking. They're saying, you need to kind of learn how to regulate yourself. And then when you get to a healthy place, come to me. Exactly.

Kate MacDougall
So what happens in a dynamic like that in a relationship is when Eric is being avoidant, or when I'm being anxious, it kind of steps on the other partners toes, it can actually trigger the other partner and be like, What the heck because as humans, we assume everyone's kind of like us. You know, the way I deal with things is the way everyone else deals with things. So if when things go bad, I panic, and I need a hug, and I need people to come and help me fix everything. Why assume everyone else in the world is like that, because that's that's how I am. But obviously, it's not, you know, we're all humans, and we're all unique in our own ways, and whatever. But in the moment, when I'm wanting to rely on the person who's most important in my life, who I'm like, they love me, they're supposed to do everything for me. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, Eric, I was so stressed. Oh, my God, I need you. And he's the avoidant partner and he's like, I'm so stressed. I need you to get away from me. Those two realities completely clash together. So I'm in my robe. Oh, going towards them. Like please, please, please comfortable come and see me Hello. And you're rowing as fast. As fast as you can away from me to get away from my anxiousness. And so it's, it makes me feel very lonely and it makes you feel very disrespected. Because you're like, Hey, I'm trying to get away from you, why can't you respect me and my needs? And I'm like, I'm trying to get close to you, why can't you respect me and my needs? And so that usually in a moment of conflict, or you know, when when things are kind of Rocky, it ends up creating resentment, and the other partners?

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, I think this is mostly what leads us to emotional gridlock, is because we have, you know, the challenges of understanding where our partners are in those moments of panic. And we obviously default to the way we view things and we view the world. It ends up us just being like, why can you just do the thing I want you to do, right? So this moment, it's like, you're just trying to get us closer. And the more you try to get us closer, the more I tried to move away, and I'm on my own being like, why can't we just take space All we needed some space to figure this out on our own, and then we can come back better than ever. And this is how you end up in these gridlock positions, where it's two partners working against each other, that are really just trying to get to the same thing. Right.

Kate MacDougall
And so I know we have a few listeners right now who are like, exactly, this is us. Oh, my gosh, yes. So what did they do? The answer Yeah, no. So

Eric MacDougall
So I think, you know, first of all, we want understand I want to go too deep in this, because we're going to run a time. But you really have to put yourself back into position that we're a team here. And we have to figure it out together.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. But we're not the problem here. The conflict is the enemy. That's right.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, really understanding that you and your partner want the same thing. Now, this is what I often challenge men with is when they they start to create these mind maps of their partner and kind of who they are. Like, while she wants this, and she doesn't want this, and she doesn't want this. And it's like, listen, the reality is, is that your partner is a human being, right, they are human person probably wanting the same thing that every other human person wants, they want to be loved, they want to cherish, they want to be respected, they want to feel safe, right? They want to have a life of adventure, and joy, and they want to feel, essentially at the core is they want to try to avoid anything that really deeply hurts them. And they want to move towards anything that creates

Kate MacDougall
pleasure, like any other human, they want to stay in that calm water. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And so they're no different. Essentially, what happens is, we just have all kinds of different ways of going about it. It's kinda what we're talking about here, right? And so what I often try to encourage men to do is, you know, step into that conversation of like, Hey, what is it exactly that you want to create for yourself, right? If your partner's priority is to avoid pain, because they're stressed out all the time, they're anxious all the time. So their highest priority is I need to have the least amount of pain in my life, well, then conversation about your relationship, and everything that's not working is not going to help them, that's actually going to be something they want to avoid. And so understanding, like, essentially, what your partner's highest priority is right now, and understanding your highest priority, because this is really important is that sometimes we're like, Well, I just wanna have sex, or I just want to connect, I just want to, but like, why do you want to connect? Like, what would that do for you? Right? For a lot of us, when we're panicking, an anxious partner, who's like, freaking out, what, what they're looking for a security. And so they're like, well, I need, you know, they're saying, like, I need connection, but what they really need is security, it needs some sort of affirmation that the attachment is secure again. Absolutely. And if you're constantly chasing your partner to try to give you that, well, then you actually have the ability, the inability to create that security within yourself. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And I think that if you're able to sit and just think outside of conflict, go and reflect back on the last conflict you had, how did I show up? What is my attachment style? What is my expectation of my partner? Am I anxious? am I expecting my partner two, you know, soothe me and come and find me and help me and do all these things for me? Or when my partner gets mad at me or is angry and at a situation? Do I retreat? Do I end up alone in my boat?

Eric MacDougall
Or even when I get overwhelmed? Do I want to be left

Kate MacDougall
alone? Yeah, exactly, exactly. So creating awareness around your own attachment style is very important here. And then understanding that, you know, that big principle, that big concept of we both want the same thing, we both want secure, we both want to get back to calm waters. So when I am in conflict, and I feel myself like Eric, help, help help, I need to take a step back and tell Eric Hey, listen, right now. I need to go soothe myself.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And so before we jump into that, what I want to say is because it's really important, you're saying, but you do need to be aware of your role. And that's a big thing, right? Typically, we're all in the dynamic. Yeah. Because what typically happens is like, we think we have a problem. And then if you're an anxious partner, you immediately say, okay, so I feel this way. So I'm gonna go to my partner and do this. Yeah. But what you really need to do more is I feel this way. So how does the way that I feel and think and the actions that I take kind of mess up or prevent me from getting what I want? That's really important, and I've asked this question to many men, and the first response is all the same. I have no clue. I don't think I'm preventing myself from getting what I want, it's like, well, of course, you IRS, you would have it. Right? It's kind of like, but then if you just say like, well, it's my partner's fault that I can't get what I want. Now you've already lost, right? Because you're already feeling powerless, etc. And so it's really important to understand here, that's why I want to talk to you that, you know, okay, this is the dynamic, how am I adding to this dynamic, so what is my role in it, and what actions, behaviors, thoughts, beliefs that I have, that are preventing me from getting what I want. So an example that I'll give you, this is the big one for a lot of people. If you believe that your partner doesn't love you, that is a way that you prevent yourself from receiving the love you want. Right? And so if you already have that blanket belief, my partner's love me? Well, what that leads to that is you bidding less, you're not viewing the way your partner's love you, you're not seeking to understand the way your partner loves you. You're not believe, like all these things, right? And that prevents you from having the relationship you want. So it's the same way that like, if you don't believe you can have what you want, why would you ever create it. And so this is really important to understand is that you get in the way of getting what you want, and you need to understand how that's created. So a lot of people that are listening, Eric, that's not true, I've asked my partner a million times to give me exactly what I want. Well, that's a great thing is that, you know, okay, so here's the great thing, you're constantly asked your partner to give you what you want, it's not working. And therefore, based on your limited focus of thinking, only my partner can give me what I need, in terms of I can't provide that for myself, I can't provide a great social circle with my friends, I can't get emotional support from my family, you have essentially put the pressure on your marriage on your partner, your everything, yeah, and they can't do that, because that leads to board functioning, which is why I'm exhausted to taking care of you. And if we create a relationship where I constantly have to be the only person that's taking care of you, that's not going to work for me. And therefore in that example, the way that you prevent yourself from getting what you want, is you created this belief that the only person who can give you what you want is your partner.

Kate MacDougall
Exactly. So if you're in conflict, you're the anxious partner. And you truly believe that the only way we can fix this problem, the only way we can get back to smooth waters is if my partner suits me if my partner gets in the same boat as me and we start rowing together. That's not necessary. Yeah, you've already lost. So where I was going, and yeah, thanks for adding that that was like awesome. But where I was going with where what I was saying was, so what you have to do as a partner is become aware of this need in conflict of having to soothe yourself having to calm down. So whether that means taking time to yourself, going to reflect taking a bath, taking some breaths, journaling, whatever, calling a friend, talking it out, finding someone else or yourself to soothe that need that's inside of you, to get you back to calm waters is absolutely essential. Because your partner does not respond the same way to conflict. Your partner cannot be that person for you. You can't force your partner into a boat that he's not comfortable or he doesn't know how to be in. Yeah. And so you have to learn to do it for yourself. And it's the same thing with an avoidant avoidant partner. I saying that avoidant? Yeah. The avoidant partner is going to have to learn, you know what I'm retreating, I need to ask for a little bit of help. I need to be able to get a little closer to the boat, doesn't mean I need to get right in it. But it just means that I can't be completely, you know, on the other side of the island completely on the other side of the ocean, it just means that I need to be able to sit closer to the other boat. And that takes time right so maybe you'll you'll be able to see the other boat with binoculars at first and then you'll be able to get closer and closer and closer. We're not asking an avoidant partner stop being an avoidant partner it that's not how it works. What we're saying is get comfortable in the discomfort. Yeah. So when you feel yourself needing to retreat, needing to step away, do it fine. Say I need some time I need to step away. I need to take like deep breaths and just like not be in your energy right now. That's fine. But come back. Yeah. And

Eric MacDougall
I think it's that's really important. I love that you added that for the avoidant partner. Because as we're wrapping up here, you know, what you really want to think about is, as the avoidant partner, your main focus is to learn to kind of self soothe, right, calm yourself in those moments, so that you don't constantly need another person to help regulate the anxious Yeah, now that's you can do that. I'm not saying that you can't do that, right. It's great to call a friend when you're struggling or lean on your partner. But if you are always doing that, and that's the only method that you can regulate yourself is by getting another person to come quote unquote, save you. Well, that's not really healthy, right? You need to learn to do that yourself. And then the same thing just like you said the avoidant partner. Well, your job job is to learn how to be in closer proximity to others. So really understanding your natural tendency to flee to avoid to put up guards to never let people in, you need to understand that. And so the work and to be honest, this a lot of a lot of men in the group are like this, where it's like, Hey, man, you actually have to call a friend this week, that's your job, you have to pick up the phone and create a human connection. Because for you, you've created this default where you don't trust people and you don't let them in. And that will never lead you to get the love that you want, is to just cut people out all the time, kind of like where I'm at. Right, right. Exactly right. And then you think about if I do everything perfect, and I don't cause anybody problems, and I just, you know, have a perfect life, then I'll feel better. But the reality is that feeling better is what as a human we call regulate. So feeling better means being with other people regulating together connecting together, but in a way that feels good to each partner. And so just something to think about, you know, think about this idea of replace yourself, hey, which one do identify with the most? And then ask yourself Do I need to start to learn to kind of call myself regulate myself to care my own needs? Or am I the avoidant partner and I need to actually step in and solidify some of these relationships and maybe open myself up a bit more in terms of emotions, vulnerability, etc.