In this episode, Kate and Eric discuss one of Eric's obsessions: Mind Mapping!

We chat about:

➡️ What exactly is mind-mapping
➡️ How you are doing it (whether you are aware of it or not)
➡️ How to use it to your advantage!
➡️ How is shows up commonly in our own relationship

Join the FREE Evolved Men's Collective Facebook Group

Apply for The Evolved Men's Collective Mastermind

FREE RESOURCE - The Six Key Relationship Skills

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Eric MacDougall
We're gonna talk a little bit about today, in terms of like, what exactly it is how it can sometimes, you know, kind of be detrimental to your relationship and prevent you from creating something truly healthy, and how you can really use it to create more connection to tap into your courage, and to really, you know, connect your partner in the way that you want to connect. You and I are gonna talk about ways that we commonly mindmap each other, and we have a couple big ones that are really, really important that I think a lot of listeners will relate to, which is really great. I think so there. So first, we're gonna talk about what exactly is mind mapping. And this happens to all of us happens all the time. So all of us mind map, we all do it. A lot of us do it unconsciously. And what mind mapping means is, typically, we're creating a map. In this case, we'll use the relationship aspect, but we're creating a map of our partner's mind, through our own life experiences, our own belief systems, and also through what we experience with them. Right. And so, this happens in all aspects of life too. So if you think like a baby, typically mindmaps their caretaker if their mother and father and if their mothers always smiling, they think it's good, right? And if their mother's mad or yelling, will they think it's bad? And so from a very young age, it's kind of a survival mechanism. So it's, it's essentially like in our DNA, 

Kate MacDougall
it's our primal instinct, right? It's how we are made exactly brain, how our brain is wired

Eric MacDougall
100%. And when you start to understand this, you know, you can see how you do it all the time, from the time when you meet a stranger, you go to her job interview, you're constantly trying to guess, and trying to build a map of the person's mind. So you can essentially, prop up your reflected sense of self, so you can give the best image based on what you think that person thinks about you.

Kate MacDougall
Exactly. Am I safe? And if I don't feel safe, how can I make myself feel safer in this moment? So safety can look like, oh, this person probably thinks I look stupid right now, how can I make myself not look stupid anymore?

Eric MacDougall
Right? Yeah, it could be I need to remove myself from situation. It could be I need to engage and interact and ask questions. It could be but you're right, essentially, most of the time mind mapping is done to try to regulate your fear response. Right? Am I safe here? Do I need to engage, I need to interact, you know, use the example of like, if you're kind of what you walk into a public place, and everyone is scurrying outside, and they all have these worried looks on their face, and they're all kind of leaving and walking in the opposite direction of you. Well, you're immediately going to start to map all their minds and think, oh, I should probably be going in their direction as well. Nothing is wrong here. Right, exactly. But if they were kind of like all jovially, smiling, and there was a tidal wave coming their way, you would probably think they're all crazy. And then you would actually just go because now, you don't need to mind map, because you're seeing the evidence of the danger. Right? So this is why mind mapping happens to all of us, we do it with our children. Yeah, exactly. We do in the workplace, we do with our family members, we do it with our especially in our relationships. And so when you're doing this new relationship, it can actually cause a lot of problems and prevent you from creating connection. But you can also use it in a way that encourages you to create a connection relation. Yes, exactly. And so typically, typical ways that we often end up mind mapping our partner is, you know, we start to create this idea of them throughout the relationship, right from the first time we meet them, we start to create this idea of what they like, what they don't like, what pisses them off, what makes them happy. And you're building this over time. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
and I would even go further to say that your mind mapping starts before you even meet your spouse before or your partner or your whoever, like before you even go on your first date. Because you started this at birth. So you have these mind maps of men in general, or women in general, or people in general. And that will come in and impact the way you're going to show up on this date. So even before meeting this potential partner, you have mindmap them in a way, based on their gender, based on their hair, skin, whatever color like all of that you've already mind mapped these people,

Eric MacDougall
yeah, and because your mind is designed to essentially create stories are going to keep you safe, you're going to use your beliefs, your evidence, your experience, to fill in the gaps, right to keep you safe. So if the information is not there, your mind is going to go into the catalog of your life and start implementing this information. Right. And

Kate MacDougall
it's a way for you to stay safe, it's a way for you to feel safe going into this date that with a person you've never met before, you already have an idea, you've already made an idea for yourself in order to feel safer about this is okay, because, and these are all the reasons it's okay, or this is going to be awkward, because and then you're going to show up in a different way, because of the thoughts you're putting into this date.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and this is so important to think about. And this is where I tell a lot of men I work with, but also we talk a lot with a lot of couples, where you need to own your beliefs about your partner, right? Because your beliefs about your partner are often not fact. Now you can justify that and through your experiences, but your beliefs about your partner, what also ties into that is your own life experience, right? Your own manuals, your own mind mapping that you bring to the idea of your partner. And so when I met you, right, we would go through thing, and then when you were kind of unhappy on a date, well, I would go back and be like, Okay, why would you be unhappy on a date? Well, all this information, I heard about dates, women typically like this and don't like this, and she might be this kind of woman. And she and I'm kind of essentially building this idea of you. Right? And this is really, really important to understand. And a lot of people don't understand this at a deep level is your partner is not the thoughts you have about your partner. And this is where people get screwed up. Because they think like that what they think about the partner is just

Kate MacDougall
fact no, it is mind maps. Right? Exactly. It's just

Eric MacDougall
something that a caricature that you've created about your partner now, some of it is true at times, right? But if I say like, okay, it's always stressed out.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, like my my my mind mapping. I'm like a pro at it like I can tell I can see the future. So every time a mind map you like totally right, ever accurate time super accurate.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, it makes sense because you also have a part in creating that future. So you're probably unconsciously, like manipulating me into that.

Kate MacDougall
Wait, how do you know? My mind maps? You I know how you know,

Eric MacDougall
yeah, and this is where we really want to be careful and why it's so detrimental is, if you are not able to separate the perception or the mind map that you make of your partner, from your partner. That's called Emotional fusion. That's where now you act as one person. And so it's no longer that person is not separate from you, you actually now exist in the same space because both your partner and you exist in your own mind out, right, your partner is not a separate human being. They're just this person that you create one brain. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
I know, in the songs. It sounds romantic, but it's it really is not.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, it's actually quite dysfunctional, just to make a country music song about how dysfunctional being one to

Kate MacDougall
become? No, don't do it.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And so Kate and I, we talk a lot about differentiation, we talk a lot about this idea of interdependence, etc. And so this is where you have to be really careful is, you know, the mind map that you may have your partner you can use to your advantage, it can help you in a lot of ways. But if it's not done in a healthy way, and if you're actually just living in fear, it can often be detrimental and really dysfunctional, your relationship. And this is where we see a lot of couples, you know, one or both partners, they prevent themselves from doing something they know is healthy, because they assume based on their mind mapping that their partner is not going to go for it.

Kate MacDougall
They already feel like they know the response that their partner is going to give. That's right before even taking the risk of asking the question, or doing the action.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And even worse, right? I've seen this with so many coaching clients where, you know, I encourage them to do something. They don't believe that it's gonna happen, but they do it anyways. And then as soon as their partner resists it a bit, they back away, because now they want to come back to me and confirm that. Well see, I tried it. And she was jumping for joy. Yeah. So when I asked her for a date, she wasn't doing backflips. Loving the date, even though we haven't been on a date in 10 years. Yeah. And it's like, hey, that makes sense that she has some resistance. This is totally new to her. But you have to keep going. But oftentimes what happens is because we bring this mind map, into our partner, even the first interaction will affirm the mind map we have of them,

Kate MacDougall
right, they'll either Well, we're going to look for evidence everywhere. To prove that we were right. About the story we made up.

Eric MacDougall
Yes, confirmation bias. This is the mind is designed to win, right, your mind wants to be right. Oh, yeah. And so if you believe that your partner is and love you, you will find all the evidence of that. And you're going to ignore the places where your partner does

Kate MacDougall
love you. Right. So by mind mapping your partner, you're essentially stopping yourself from taking risks in your relationship, you're stopping yourself from trying new things, or bringing up hard subjects, because you were assuming what your partner's reaction is going to be. Or maybe you have, you know, a bias of, you know, men in general, from, you know, a mind map that you have deeply engraved into you. And that will come in and affect your conversations with your husband or your wife, whatever vice versa, like because you have this deep ingrained belief, you'll stop yourself from even starting a conversation from even thinking that having a conversation about something that's making you uncomfortable is even possible. Because why would have a conversation with a man men are mean. Yeah, you know, say say that's your Mind Map. Right? Right away. It's men are mean,

Eric MacDougall
for my husband's mean, yeah, therefore, I can't talk to him, because it's gonna get more mean. Yeah. And that happens like at lightning speed in your brain,

Kate MacDougall
one on one that was like my entire first year university philosophy or psychology, no philosophy, really? Because then Oh, right. Yeah. And so

Eric MacDougall
and but what also happens here, and this is where I want everyone to kind of really listen up. Because this is really important is that if you have a mind map of your partner that replays this negative idea of them, so if you characterize them as this, oppressor, this person who doesn't love you, etc. Like they're screwed, like, there's nothing they can do to prove their love to you, because what happens is, every time they do something that maybe is not just affirming their love to you, you're like, oh, there it is. There it is. You don't love me, you don't you spend more time with the kids, or I asked you to do this, and you were on your phone. And so you're looking for evidence of that, which we know is confirmation bias. But then when they do do something that's out of love, you're like, You're crazy. I don't get it. I'm so confused. What's going on. She's crazy. She doesn't know what she wants, because you have this belief about them that you're holding on to, and there's no wiggle room for them to help you change that belief.

Kate MacDougall
Right. And that just made me think of something else that we typically do say you do ask for We're, you know, you ask your husband for a date, and your husband's not giving you that date and you're like, you know, all I want from you once in a while be nice for you to plan a date. You know, I really make me feel loved. While you become so stuck on this mind map of if I have a date with my husband, I will be happy. And so anything your husband does, he can buy you flowers, he can make dinner every night, he can massage your feet, he can give him massages, you're not even seeing that you're just so focused on why isn't you planning this date? My husband doesn't plan date obviously doesn't love me because he doesn't plan dates. But it's because you have convinced yourself. My husband is on personal plans, dates, and unless he plans a date, he won't love me. That's the Mind Map you've created. So everything else disappears. All his beautiful actions and acts of love that he's doing that aren't necessarily a date, but they're probably fantastic. You're not even seeing them. You're not even noticing them.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. Because you're only obsessed with this one specific outcome that you want or you've made up. Yeah. And that's really tough, right? I you know, and we really want to make sure that when we're mapping our partner, we understand how to separate that from our actual partner. That is just our thoughts, our beliefs in our head that have been created. It's not reality. Now, sometimes our mind map and reality align, right? Sometimes you see your boss and they look angry. And then so you go talk to them, and your boss blows up on you. And you're like, well, there's like operations, they were actually. Right. But sometimes your boss is angry, and he's just gonna fart. And so you kind of like, Oh, he's not angry. He's just whatever cramping is? Sure, right? And so it's really important understand that like, yes, sometimes what you think your partner's thinking is congruent with what they're actually thinking. But most of the time, it's not always the case. And if you decide to just take that at face value, it doesn't give your partner an opportunity for any change, because they actually now have to get in your head to try to change that. Right? And so you need to kind of let that go and be open. Or understand why you're holding on to this belief about your partner, because in some weird way, it's serving you.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I think what gets us out of this is, you know, sometimes we'll have mindmap moments where I'm like, I'm assuming this. And we'll say it out loud. The story in my head right now, is that, and then I'll say whatever the mind maps going on. And is that true for you confirm or deny? Yeah, no. Is it true? And sometimes, yeah, suddenly, sadly, it is true. The story in my head is you're mad at me right now. Yes, I'm very mad at you. And I remember from her and you're like, Oh, I wish I didn't bring it up. But at least it gives space for your partner to talk.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And at least it confirmed the situation you're like, great, because now I'm actually satisfied that I know that. Thank you for telling me. And

Kate MacDougall
sometimes it's No, I'm not mad. Why would you? Why would you think that? I don't know, it's just your face.

Eric MacDougall
So maybe I am mad, but not with you. Yeah, you know, today, I was mad, something about work, Mama blah, like, that would be the case as well. Yeah. And so we also want to talk about this idea of, you know, how to use mind map to your advantage and to create connection. And so the big difference is, when you're using mind map from a place of fear, right, to prevent your own discomfort to prevent pain, that's a lot of us use mind mapping that way, especially in long term relationships, right? We're trying to avoid discomfort. And so we're mapping our partner, we're trying to understand what they want, we're trying to make sure that, oh, when they're in a good mood, I can ask for this, when they're not in a good mood, I can't ask for this, etc, etc. Well, when you're doing that from fear, you're often preventing your relationship from growing, right, because you're not interacting. You're not You're you're coming to these, you know, preconceived ideas. And you've already made these conclusions about a situation and all that's living in your head, and you don't actually give your partner enough respect for them to choose for themselves. Right. So they're losing a battle that's in your own head, right. So that's the fear aspect. What we want to move towards is this idea of leading from love. And, you know, we, in my mastermind, we call it servant leadership. But this idea that you can mind map your partner, and if it's done from a way to love them and serve them, it can actually benefit not only you not only your partner, but also your relationship as a whole. Right? And this is this idea, you know, the best example I use is, when Ken and I are in a funk, right? It happens you'll be in a funk, r&b and funk. And I'll come to you, and I'll be like, hey, like you're doing okay. Like, you don't seem yourself? Well, in some moments, Kate might not want to talk about it. So she'll just be like, I'm fine. You know what I mean? And in that moment, if I take it at face value, so I'm not focused on loving her, right? If I'm not focused on penetrating that guard, if I'm not focused on really serving her in this moment, I might be like, okay, and walk away. But instead, I'm mapping her mind. I know her I'm like, Hey, based on all the other times that you weren't fine. This is kind of how you showed up. When you are fine. You certainly don't Trump this way. So what I do is I push a little bit more, and I step into that right step into my fire and I say, hey, I get your saying that but you certainly don't seem fine. And I really want to hold space for you right now. Happy to just listen. Yeah. Right. And then typically, Kate will be like, You know what, I'm not fine. And I don't really want to talk about it right now. But no, like, I'm not good. It's like, okay, like, I'm here. I'm happy to listen, if you want, I can listen now, or I can come back later and check in on you. Right? And that doesn't happen. Unless I mind map my partner. If I was not my Mac, my partner, just taking everything at face value. I was just like, Well, you said you were fine. And then your partner's out. No Man's Land feeling like crap.

Kate MacDougall
It's the typical. Hey, yeah. Are we getting each other anything for Christmas? No, no, let's not get each other anything. Mind Mapping, right? It's always yes. Yes,

Eric MacDougall
I reside. So funny, because we just had your birthday. And you're like, What are you doing for our birthday? And I was like, Oh, what do you want to do? And you're like, I don't know, keep it simple. And I was like, yeah, great Saturday night, just mean, you're gonna watch some TV and pop some popcorn. And you're literally like, fuck you. Like, don't worry, I have everything planned. It's gonna be a great night. Until that moment, right? It's that thing where it's like, I don't want to ask for it. I don't want to tell you what to do. But I hope you do something. every man, every woman that kind of gets this right, especially husbands with their wives. Their wives are like, I don't want to be a burden. No, I just want you to guess and do something amazing. But on the outside, they're like, like, No, everything's fine. Don't do anything. No, do something. Men always always choose to do something.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And it's it goes like, you know, when you're in a store, and you see something in your wife is like almost some pretty Oh, it's so expensive. I'd really really love it. But then it's like, read the room she wants.

Eric MacDougall
She wants it if you have the money for it.

Kate MacDougall
There's nothing stopping you from buying it for her. And she's just like, No, I can't buy purses way too much. No way. No way. Like, it was kind of like me this weekend, talking about my birthday. Like we went into that store. And I was like, really? I'm gonna pay this much for a school bag. Like, come on, come on. And you were like, Hey, if you want it, we're gonna get it. And then I nope. No, we're leaving. We're leaving. We're leaving. Like, I don't think you would have left me. Let me leave that mall without bag.

Eric MacDougall
I was like, we're gonna back for you tonight. Yes, this is happening. Yeah. Right. And that's me kind of leading you and saying like, it's okay. I know. I know. You have resistance. But we're stepping into this.

Kate MacDougall
Yes. And this was you mind mapping me. Caitlin's very uncomfortable with this purchase right now. She needs my help needs my help to encourage her and make this okay. And maybe she won't buy it for herself. But I will go and buy it for her later.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, exactly. 100%. And that's such a great example. Because a lot of times what happens instead is you don't do anything, and then you're disappointed. And they're like, I really wanted that bag. And then I'll be like, this is like what a lot of men do don't take responsibility. They're like, Well, you said you didn't want Yeah, so it's your fault. We're getting other gifts. And that can be Yeah, that's blown your leg off. And this is where we need to kind of understand the conversation behind the conversation, and really be able to mind map to our advantage, right. And so we really want to focus on, you know, if I deeply love this person, and that's what I focus on serving my partner, being generous, understanding new ways to love them. And you're committed to that, well, then things become clearer. But if your focus is just try not to piss your partner off, because it makes you uncomfortable. Well, that's your focus is gonna become clearer.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And in those moments, Mind Mapping doesn't always happen, like instantaneously in that moment, like I can see it. And she said, No, we're not getting each other something for Christmas, but she really grinned really big. And I was like, okay, yeah, right, we're gonna do that. Like, sometimes it's not in the moment, sometimes you have to mindmap for a while, you know, if your wife was always talking about her friends receiving gifts, or she's always telling you, you know, I would be really nice if you gave me surprises once in a while. Like, That's your hint. That's the mind mapping you should be doing for that Christmas gift that she said, No, no, no, we're not buying each other anything like, that's, that's the mind mapping you should be doing in the future. conversations you're going to be having together.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And reflecting on that. And we want to talk about, you know, before we in this episode, we each had kind of an example of how we mind map each other. And kind of what that leads to, and people can relate to it. So do you want to go first with kind of me asking a bunch of questions. You want to start?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, so one way that I typically feel mind maps, my mapping like one way I mind map you, I don't feel my map. I my map view is that I oftentimes if you're asking me a question, or you're like bringing up a conversation, like, Hey, I'd love to talk about this. I automatically go into, okay, how does he want me to respond? Like what what is the answer he's looking for? Because like, he either seems really passionate about the subject or I don't want to look like a dum dum. So I'm going to give him the response I think he wants to hear which ends up us Having dishonest conversations?

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, maybe not dishonest, but certainly in authentic and

Kate MacDougall
authentic and genuine. Yeah. Right. And but sometimes it can be dishonest you know, like, like the Christmas thing, right? What do you want to do for your birthday? Oh, nothing. Just simple things like that's dishonest. I want a big extravaganza. Exactly. So not in a dishonest way. That's like, you know, like the nugget of dishonest we see like, we feel that sometimes just not the full truth. Right? And that can be really hurtful sometimes

Eric MacDougall
chipped away. Trust it chips away. Yeah. And then sometimes

Kate MacDougall
I'll walk out of that conversation. And I'm like, oh, like, That was not me. Why did I say that? Like, and oftentimes, because we've been together for so long, you'll catch me, you'll be like, why are you even saying that? Like, you don't truly think that like, really? And then you'll start questioning and deeper and deeper and then I get uncomfortable. And then I just stopped talking because I'm like, Oh, God, he's right. Perlman. And this

Eric MacDougall
is the classic like, avoidance mouse pattern, right? And so in our relationship, I'm typically the pursuer, you're the avoider. And so very typical in that dynamic where, you know, one partner starts to engage, and the other partner instead of like, being grounded, and kind of like expressing clearly what's going on for them, they start to think about, what is it you want from me? What do I need to give you? So this conversation can stop? And I can go back to avoiding? Right, right? And so in those scenarios, what happens is, you go like your Mind Map goes on high alert, right? To say like, Okay, what answer is Eric looking for? That will satisfy him, so he can stop talking?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And typically, what I'll do is I'll just let you talk more and more and more and more until I'm like, I think I got it. I think I got the answer. He wants I've Mind Map, like, have caught the Google map, you know, pro version is praying. Yeah. And

Eric MacDougall
I think a lot of people can relate to this. Yeah. Right, kind of giving our partner what they want. So it's like, oh, this will make you happy. Cool. Now you left me alone. Meanwhile, inside being like, I never get what I want. And I'm never heard and nobody ever hears me. And it's like, well, yeah, because you're mostly focused on giving your partner what they want.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And then what happens is typically, like, if, if I spend too much time mind mapping you in and answering questions in the way I think you want them to be answered. I'll blow up. Like, eventually you'll ask me something. And I'll be like, You know what, I don't even care about that. I don't even care about it. You've been talking about and you don't that stupid thing you brought up the other day. And you're like, what? Where is this coming?

Eric MacDougall
From? Because you're not like, I'm not receiving what you think I want? Yeah. Right. Because I don't want answers. I just want to have a conversation. It's curious. So I'm just curious. And there's a rabbit hole. And so we're kind of playing this ping pong game where you're like, Okay, I guess this is the answer. And then it's like, okay, I keep asking questions down this rabbit hole. And to me, it doesn't end to me. It's like, this is a great conversation. I'm learning a lot about you. But meanwhile, you're just kind of feeding me answers. And it's getting exhausting. Oh, yeah. And

Kate MacDougall
then at the end, I'm just exhausted. And then I blow up, like, why am I even talking about this anymore? Like, what what was the point of this conversation? Like, like, can we just stop talking? Right? And then you're like, what? I thought we were I was okay.

Eric MacDougall
We were getting to know me. I was waiting for you to ask me question

Kate MacDougall
doesn't happen. I don't have that part of my vocabulary yet.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. So I think that's very common. And the one I wanted to share when it comes to mind mapping is, you know, especially around connecting sexually. And so a lot of times, you know, I'm hyper aware of how breaks happened in your life, based on my mind map. So again, not based on reality, based on the map that I've made in my head about you.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and when you're talking about breaks, just so people who don't necessarily know what that means, he means like, my sexual breaks. So what stops me from feeling turned on or wanting to engage in intimacy with their

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, from being open, open to sexual intimacy, pleasure, desire, all that stuff? Yeah. And so oftentimes, what happens is, you know, if I'm feeling connected and energetic, and I want to connect with you, the Mind Map goes on high alert. And then if you come home from school, and you're stressed out now, it's like, it lowers I'm like, Okay, now I have to adjust to the stress to try to bring her back up. And then if you're, like, keep talking about school, like, what's happening is I'm constantly navigating this, and I'm like, Okay, now we got to do this, okay, I got to do this. And we got to do this, always with this idea of, hey, I want to connect with her sexually. And so I have to navigate this idea when really, I could probably just connect with you be playful, bring that energy instead of like, navigating and try to avoid you in these ways. So like, Oh, she's very stressed out and bothered, I'm going to try to bother her less. And then tonight, I'm just going to spring out to her with no pants on and hopefully things work out.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and for me, I think in those moments, what I what I truly need from you, is help to remove my teacher hat or my mom hat or whatever hat that's weighing on my head. So if I'm coming home and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I had such a terrible day little boy like Don't expect that you're gonna be like, don't wanna have sex. Like, not right away, like read the room. But like, if you, you know, joyfully or playfully like bring me to a point of being like, hey, why don't you take that hat off? Here's your seductress hat. Like, why don't you try this one on precise? I might be like, okie dokie. Yeah, kind of nice or even,

Eric MacDougall
like, bring that energy lighter to you, right? Like, instead of bringing this kind of avoidant energy, I have to avoid this kind of passion, this fire. Instead, I kind of step into it. And I bring that energy

Kate MacDougall
up there. Exactly. And it's so funny because actually, that's one a mind map that I do for you too is when you have that kind of energy, you come in and you say, Oh, well, you're kind of in a funk or whatever. Like, I will avoid asking you for things like typically like foot massages and things like that. I'm like, Oh my gosh, that would be like, such a burden for him. Like, he doesn't need that. Like, he doesn't have time for me. Yeah, exactly. Like and, and even when you're feeling better, and you've been kind of like in a funk for a few days. And then you're like, on the up and up, you're like coming out of it, you've worked out, you've done all the healthy things like, I'm like, I but he's just like coming out of this funk. Like, he doesn't need to focus on me like, I'm such a burden. Like, that's the idea I've made of myself. This is a deep, deep seated mind map that I have, that I'm a burden, which plays into the mind map of who Erickson is overwhelmed right now. Or he just got into overwhelm like, he's not gonna want to, he's not gonna want to rub my feet. So I avoid asking you. So it's the exact same thing except it's not sex. It's connection, physical connection. And and it could be anything just like, can you make dinner tonight? Like, I might feel bad asking you that? Or, you know, can you help me fold laundry or whatever, because I'm like a little.

Eric MacDougall
You probably don't also want me to blow up and make it worse. Right? The last thing you want us to say like, Hey, can you make dinner? And I'm like, God, I was overwhelmed. Like, right? I've just been talking to you about how stressed out I am and blah, blah, blah. So there's a sense of you that's probably avoiding that as well trying to protect you trying to protect me. Yeah, yeah. 100%. And I think in that moment, right, especially when you talk about the foot massage, right, that idea of you bringing that energy asking for that. And then us being in that connection, where I'm touching you where we're touching each other, we're able to slow down. And that brings me into a different space, it gets me out of my head, it gets me into my hands touching you. And that's actually very helpful. But again, if you're leaning from fear, you're not going to ask for it. But if you're stepping into love, and stepping into servant leadership, and being like, Hey, Eric needs this kind of wake up call to connect with him in a way that's loving, that's inviting, well, then you can step into that. Yeah. And you've

Kate MacDougall
told me that before, you've told me like by asking me for the things you want by asking me, you know, to foot massage, or for backup or whatever. It's reminding me that I need to take a pause, it's reminding me that I need to connect with you is reminding me of what's important for me. And what truly is my values like, serving, serving, serving all the time other people isn't necessarily what you want to be doing. You also want to serve me as your as a husband. So I think that, you know, you've told me that before, I just sometimes I just forget,

Eric MacDougall
right? Because I placed against your idea that you're a burden, right? And you should remain invisible. And you should be kind of sitting in that hurt. But you're right, like you overcoming that belief in yourself. And asking me for you want allows me to step into one of my values, which is to serve you, which is something I really love doing. Yeah. Yeah. So for all of you listening, right, really think about this idea of mind mapping in your own life. And are you using it to avoid connection? Or are using it to your advantage to step into that and really create connection right to understand your spouse? Yeah, at a deeper level to serve to love and be real honest with yourself. Because, you know, sometimes we try to justify that we're doing things for love. But sometimes we are really deep down doing it because we're afraid of discomfort. We're afraid of rocking the boat, etc.