In this episode, Kate & Eric explore vulnerability in relationships and its crucial role following conflicts.

Topics:
➡️ Understanding self-validated vs. other-validated intimacy.
➡️ The role of attunement in healing post-conflict.
➡️ Approaches to being vulnerably honest after disagreements.
➡️ Personal growth through navigating conflict and vulnerability.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Eric MacDougall
So today, we're talking about vulnerability. And this is specifically from a listener. So a listener reached out to us. If you want to reach out to us, or you have questions or want Kate and I to kind of jam on something, you can go to evolvedmarriage.com/contact. And you can actually just send us a line and let us know kind of what's up or on Spotify or listen to on Spotify. You can also drop a comment there and let us know your question. This specific individual asked us, you know, can you do an episode on being vulnerable with your partner? Especially after conflict? So that's what we're gonna talk about today. We really wanted to frame this, as you know, when you're maybe feeling insecure, and your attachment is not as secure as you want it to be? How do you approach your partner in a way that kind of opens them up to connection instead of puts them on guard? Right. And I think this is really great, because you and I had a tough week, we had some conflict over the weekend. And we had to kind of reengage in a very vulnerable way. And vulnerability looks different for each of us. We receive vulnerability looks different for each of us. So that's really important. Understand. So do you want to take the reins on this?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. Being vulnerable, especially after conflict. During Oh, talk about you know, think Kissing in public makes me uncomfortable. You know, what makes me more uncomfortable? Conflict, any kind of conversation, talking. I don't like talking about my feelings in my heart. Oh my gosh, we're in therapy the other day. And she's like, we're getting really deep into feelings that I'm like, oh, hide me. I just want to hide. Yeah, hide, like, just wanted to slide under my chair and just be like, we're not talking about this.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. So you definitely tend to be more of the avoider between the two of us. Right? Yeah, kind of sweep under the rug. Let's not revisit conflict. Yeah, kind of pretend it goes away.

Kate MacDougall
And it actually happened this week where we fell into conflict. And I was upstairs and I was like, I'm not going to bed. And the last thing I told Eric was this like really snarky mean remark and last thing he told me was a really snarky mean remark and we kind of ended the conflict kind of badly and harshly. So I was like, yeah, no, this is not happening. Like I want to go up to him and repair and I was just no I will be able to be vulnerable if that's like, you know, like all the noises I'm making right now. That's how I felt in my body. I was like, I'm gonna go downstairs and I'm gonna, who have megaphone, but it was awkward. And so what ended up happening was me coming downstairs and saying, I don't really know what so though I feel awkward right now. And I'm sorry, when I'm like, I don't know what to say. I just like, you tell me what to say. Yeah. And that was not good.

Eric MacDougall
Right. And I think I think what we really want to help listeners understand is that in those moments, when you're feeling insecure, and you're feeling disconnection, there is a difference between trying to do something just to absolve yourself from discomfort, right, which I think is what a lot of people do. It's like, I feel like shit. So I'm gonna go back to my partner and figure it out, or make them make me feel better. Sure, or I feel like shit. So I'm just gonna avoid this altogether, and I won't engage, right, those are kind of the often the two stances that you can take. It's either I feel like shit, so I need to re engage, or I feel like shit. So I'm gonna avoid engaging. And, to be honest, I think it's important to flip that and, and focus on, you know, there's something we talked about in the group with the meta coach of like, self validate intimacy, and this idea to validate yourself is you have to make choices in that moment, you have to connect to your higher self, for lack of a better term. And really think about, like setting the bar high for the relationship. And so when you think about your ideal relationship, right, you want a relationship where, where you can each open your heart, and kind of put up the olive branch for connection. Right, right. And so from that place from this idea of saying, hey, like, you know, we're a couple and yes, we're hurt. And yes, we said some hurtful things. But I want to reconnect. And in order to do that, I'm going to have to face this fear. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And I think the best thing to do in a moment like that, right? Like, really, honestly, if you think about it, like I don't know, if you own a dog or whatever, but like, you know, when your dog does something really crappy. You've probably seen the Instagram videos where you're like, who did this and the dog comes up to you and their ears are all like, backwards, and they're looking at you with the side puppy eyes and their tails between their legs and their leg. I'm sorry. Well, that's pretty much like how you're showing up after conflict, right? You're going up to your partner, and you're like, Oh, I messed up. But, you know, it's full of swear words tonight. I'm so sorry. But I think that it's really important to, you know, gain your backbone and just be like, You know what, we both make mistakes here. I'm not the only one to blame. I'm not, you know, the one who caused conflict. I actually I did, you know,

Eric MacDougall
you were part of it. I was part of it. Yeah, the conflict doesn't happen without both of us exactly.

Kate MacDougall
Like, we're 5050. Right. Like I part of it was me part of it was, you know, we both had a part to play in. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
I don't want to say 5050.

Kate MacDougall
I'm just saying, I'm just saying the

Eric MacDougall
conflict doesn't happen without both people. Exactly. Right.

Kate MacDougall
And so, you know, for me to go in and be like, Oh, it's all my fault. No, it's like, that's definitely going to make me have trouble come in and be vulnerable. But if I can stand up and say, Hey, listen, I messed up. Here's the part I played, and do this self reflection before coming back. Here's, here's where I went wrong. Here's what I could have done differently. Dang, I shouldn't have called Eric, that name. I shouldn't have said this. I probably should have like, backed off my ego, like put it aside a little bit. These are all the things that I could have done differently. Once I get that in my head, and I kind of have this idea of like, yeah, Kate, you're not perfect. There's things you could have done differently. Yeah, it sucked. But this isn't new. This doesn't identify the person you are, you're not a person who messes up in conflict all the time. It's just right now in this moment, you didn't show up at your best and that's okay. So instead of walking back to Eric, like a sad puppy with my tail between my legs me lately, I'm so sorry. Like, if I go up to you, and I'm like hair, like, Man, I messed up. I messed up, I said some things that were hurtful, I did some things that were probably hurtful, whatever, you know, I take ownership for my part in the conflict, I take ownership for my part in the argument or whatever it was, we were talking about. And I talked about that, factually, I said, this Nomis really hurt. And I really talk about it in a way where I'm focusing on you and the impact that that must have had on you. And then by doing so, I'm being vulnerable by saying like, Hey, Eric, like, it's like, I'm getting naked in front of you, like, look at me, like I did all these bad things like I recognize it. But by recognizing those things, and by being vulnerable, what Eric is seeing is I'm ice See you. And I see the impact that my attitude and whatever had on you. So I'm not coming in guns blazing coming in to blame you again coming in to, you know, shoot you with another shot. I'm coming in and showing you like, dang, I'm sorry, I messed up.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I love that you said that, you know, one of the things, I think the shift that a lot of people need to learn to move towards in these moments is that, like the choice to be vulnerable to your partner, regardless if it's being vulnerable and sharing the mistake you made being vulnerable and asking for something being vulnerable and saying the connection, like whatever, right, in any case, being vulnerable. Oftentimes, what prevents us from being vulnerable? Is we kind of play out what's going to happen, right? So with our head, we're like, oh, but then they're gonna do that I'm gonna have to do, no, I'm not doing any of this. And so you kind of sit and you ruminate on that, and your mind mapping your partner. And so I love this idea that you said, which is kind of own your side of the street, just focus on your side of the street. Here's what I did. Here's my mistake. I apologize for that. Here's how I imagined I made you experience the situation, is there anything else you want to add to that, etc, that's really important. One of the things that I think I want listeners to understand is that there is a difference between, you know, I call it like self validated, and other valid intimacy. And I keep coming back to this because being vulnerable and opening yourself up to somebody, because it's the person you want to be, and it's how you want to show up in a relationship. And it's so you can look yourself in the mirror again that day and say, I did this, you know, in that moment, when you were up in your room, and you said, I don't want to go to bed tonight. You know, like without saying those things to Eric being my last thing. That was a choice that you made for you, right, like so you could look yourself in the mirror and say, this is the kind of woman I want to be this is a kind of wife I want to be. So I'm gonna go ahead and do this thing. Regardless of how I responded, and to be honest, I don't really respond in the correct way. Right, and I wasn't ready to receive it. And so but regardless of how I respond to it, it does not take away that you did the thing you said you would do for you. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
exactly. Because this is the kind of wife I want to be, therefore, I will stick with my values, I will stick with you know, that decision and be like, yep, you know what, no matter what Eric says, no matter how he responds, at least I know that I was true to myself. Yeah, I am not a person who goes to bed angry. I am not a person who will accept speaking to others like that. And so I will go downstairs, I will be vulnerable, I will open up there. Now what happens after that? That's hard to deal with. But that's beyond the point. Yeah, the point is, I am being true to myself.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And that's kind of self validated. And this is where people, we have a lot of hard time with that. Because what's romanticize and what is sold to us about relationships is this other type of intimacy, which is other validated, and other valid intimacy typically falls into this idea of an agreement. And essentially, it goes from this idea which we want, which is, hey, you know, I'm coming at you hat in hand, I'm risking my heart here, I'm putting myself out there. And I, this is a risk for me. And I hope that you are kind to me, and I hope that you love me. And I hope that you reciprocate something, but I know that you might not. And that's okay, because I'm doing this for me. And I'm doing this because I love you. And whatever happens, and however you want to receive it is up to you. And that's kind of the risk that's self validated. Other valid intimacy, which is what a lot of people sell, is this idea of, hey, I'm going to come to you. And if I own my side of the street, you're going to own your side of the street. And when I start, say, I'm sorry, then you will follow up and say you're sorry, yeah. And then afterwards, we will both go to bed not angry. And then you will never bring this up again, I will never bring this up again. And we will live happily ever after. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
essentially, you're going to be vulnerable to apologize to do whatever it is that you need to do after conflict, to make yourself feel better, to make yourself feel like, you know, if I go apologize, then I'm not the bad guy. He's the bad guy. And if he yells at me, well, then he's still the bad guy like, so that other validated intimacy, and that is very much what the majority of us do, especially if we haven't given ourselves enough time to calm down after the fight. Yeah, after an argument after whatever.

Eric MacDougall
And there's also this expectation that your partner, right, how many of us go into, you know, being vulnerable, and then we expect our partner to do the same. That's not real intimacy, right. Intimacy takes risk. So sometimes, I open up to Kate, and she doesn't respond, right. You're just like, Oh, that's nice. And I'm like, also open my heart to you like, but that's self outed. I did it because I wanted to open my heart to Kate. Right. But if you go in and you're like, Well, you know, I'm gonna apologize, but then he better apologize. And if he doesn't, he's a jerk, and I'm gonna hold it. I'm gonna withhold love from him. Yeah, that's a whole different paradigm that you're in now. Yeah. And so yeah, like, I kind of want to encourage people as they're thinking about this. Have you need to choose to be vulnerable for yourself. Because opening your heart to another, then gives them an opportunity to step in and care for it. And without doing that, you cannot shore up or create secure connection. Right? And so you have to commit to yourself in the beginning and say, I'm not doing this on the condition that they do something. I'm actually doing this because I choose to open myself up. And if they don't respond well, later on, you can revisit that and say, Hey, what I really needed in that moment was X, Y and Z.

Kate MacDougall
Right? And that's very important. It's, it's waiting for them to be ready waiting for that moment where you can see that they've come down. You know, it's one thing for me to go back to Eric, and to be like, Hey, listen, I messed up, here's everything I did, this must have made you feel XYZ, you know, like, that's a whole other episode. But it's one thing for me to go out and do that. But then to expect that Eric is going to be ready. Because just because I'm ready, doesn't mean anything, right? Like, Eric, especially in our relationship and our dynamic, you know, I'm someone who's ready to kind of get over it and move on five minutes later, Eric could be like a day or two, you know, it takes your heart a lot more time to heal. And so, you know, this is something that I've had to learn to deal with, with the IRS and understand that like, this has nothing to do with me, this is just how you're wired. And so when I go up to you, just because I know it takes you two days to get over it. It doesn't mean that I can't do it five minutes later, it just means that I have to have real expectations that when I do it, you might snap back, you might, you know, tell me something that makes me feel like crap, like, just because you're not ready to receive it. But it doesn't take away the fact that I did it, and you still hear it. Yeah, despite you not being ready to reciprocate, you still receive it, you still hear it. And so a couple days later, when you're healed, you've heard that, and it doesn't mean that a while I've said it, I'm not gonna say it again. But you know, I can keep checking in and I can keep, you know, Hey, Eric, like, I know, you're still hurting I'm, I'm still very sorry. Like those things I said weren't okay. And keep waiting for that, you know, for you to come and for you to apologize eventually. But I'm not doing it for that. I'm doing it just so you see, like, hey, like, I'm sorry. And I really want you to notice it to feel like your notice to feel like you're hurt to feel like you're seen. So that's very important to understand that each person is wired, wired differently, each person will have, you know, they'll be ready to receive it, or give it on their own time to be vulnerable on their own time. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
and I think what we want to talk about, yeah, we could do a whole other episode on this, this idea of attunement, because in that moment, because I need more time to heal, and because Kate, typically you're the one that wants to move past it more quickly. Right? It kind of puts us out of tune, and it would not be okay. Like, I wouldn't say no one would be okay. But it would not help our relational dynamic for me to force myself to come to your table or for you to force yourself to come to my table. And so what happens in our dynamic is we try to figure out how we can work together so we can both get what we want. And so what used to happen was, you would come to me and I would just totally Stonewall you and ignore you, and you wouldn't get what you want, and you feel totally isolated, which was extremely painful for you. Or it was like, well, I need to give Kate what she wants. So when she comes back five mins later, and he's like, you know, I need to deal with this. And so I would deal with it, even though I'm still really hurting, and then you would just pretend everything was great. And then that like really hurt me that I'm like, I'm still hurt. And you're like pretending our life's amazing and it's not I'm I'm in deep pain. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
and just just you saying pretending like I wasn't pretending I truly thought we were apologize and everything was better. And you were like, No, I just pretended to apologize. I sang my pair for it seems like you're pretending but I'm not like I'm like, oh, everything's great. Everything's fine. Eric apologize. I apologize. High five. We're back to normal. But you weren't you dishonestly apologize. Yeah, in order to spare my feelings. And that doesn't work for the relationship either.

Eric MacDougall
And so what we have to do, you know, we've learned to do is how do we get both? So in those moments, what typically happens is like you come to me and in the moments what you need is affirmation that like I see you and that we're going to be okay and so it's like hey, I get it like I get you want to move through like things will be okay but right now they're not okay. And so I'm I want to continue to engage with you. I want to continue to love you, but it's not going to be like happy go lucky for the next two days. But I will also not Stonewall you. So I will still be here. I'm still willing to talk it's just going to be a little more monotone as I process this right. And so and then for you typically what happens is you kind of accept that but then you continue to like connect, but in a way that's not like, hey, let's like trample over Eric's feelings and pretend his feelings don't matter. It is like Eric's in pain. So I'm going to check in a lot. You know, oftentimes, you'll text me, you know, throughout the day next, hey, how you doing? I'm really sorry. I just wanna say I love you like everything's cool. And so you're still connected. banging away, and I'm responding. So in that moment, what we've what we've allowed ourselves to do is we essentially both get what we want, neither of us feel like our, our feelings are being diminished, or ignored. But we are also both in the growth zone, you have to learn to kind of deal with kind of two days of maybe not being like, oh, everything's amazing, were super great. But also I have to learn to deal with like, Hey, I have to engage with Kate, I can't just cut her out, totally isolate. And so I think that's really important people understand, right, as you're kind of going through this as you have to work together. It's not like Kate's way or my way, it's actually you have to create a new way where you can both find attunement, when both of you need to kind of flex a bit and grow. And both of you should be able to get more of what you want, which I think is really important.