In this episode of the Evolved Marriage Podcast, Kate and Eric discuss strategies  in maintaining a strong and intimate connection.

Topics:
➡️ The Importance of Boundaries in Relationships
➡️ Starting Conversations about Intimacy and Pleasure
➡️ Building Emotional Safety and Trust

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TRANSCRIPT

Eric MacDougall
In this episode, we talk about creating intimacy in a way that feels connecting, but without the pressure of having it lead to sex.

Kate MacDougall
Yes. And we've said this before, we've talked about this numerous times, but I will repeat again. Because for me, the word intimacy you say, Oh, I was very intimate with this person. I'm like, Dang girl you with sex with him? And it's like, no,

Eric MacDougall
I was gonna say even more probably you had like vaginal intercourse with him. 

Kate MacDougall
Okay, like even just trying to interact let us just define sex as well. In my head sex is always penis and vagina. What I mean that's the problem just doesn't it just there needs to be penetration. If you're homosexual. It's penis in something like that is sex.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And that's what I mean. So anyways, not to get too deep into that, but I do think But like you said, when we talk about intimacy, we tend to people think about, yeah. When they think about intercourse, right,

Kate MacDougall
so today, we're not talking about that kind of intimacy. Yeah. And I'm

Eric MacDougall
gonna say here, just to jump in, like it's on both partners here, because one of the things I see is, you know, I see the one side where men obviously want to have more sex, and that's okay. Right. And again, some

Kate MacDougall
women to generalizing your ex, I

Eric MacDougall
work a lot of man but steady, like, I want to have sex on a sex. But also, oftentimes, there's the partner, and even when the man doesn't want to have sex, if he just wants to touch which wants to cuddle him just want to kiss. Because it's been the trend for so long. The belief system is still there to like, oh, he just wants sex. Oh, he just wants x right? Even though maybe the man all he wants is to cuddle her touch you or love or dance or?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, yeah. And I hear I just heard like, 20 women that are listening, if we're lucky enough to have 20 women, I said, going, you're right. Oh, not my

Eric MacDougall
husband. Just want to cuddle. Sure. Yeah. Sometimes your husband just wants to be a little spoon ladies. just wants to be held. Yes, it's true. And he will not admit it. He will not. Yeah, so let's dive into it. Because I think this is really, really important. So we're talking about four ways to really bring more intimacy, to your relationship, without the pressure of having to have sex, right.

Kate MacDougall
So as we were, as we're saying, intimacy has many faces. Intimacy, is not just physical, it's not just about touching, it's not just about feeling each other up, or kissing, or whatever. Intimacy is also emotional. Where you're opening up to somebody where you're talking where you're getting deep, you're being vulnerable, you're opening yourself up to another person. So that is kind of the kind of intimacy that, you know, before there can be physical intimacy. Sometimes for a lot of people, especially for women, there needs to be that emotional connection, there needs to be that trust, that safety, and that emotional intimacy needs to be deeply developed before you can have any kind of physical intimacy.

Eric MacDougall
Well, yeah, and again, not to get too deep into it. I mean, there's plenty of people out there who are having the physical act of sex, who have no intimate connection with that person. And so that is what it is. But I do think that we want it at the baseline, understand that intimacy means to reveal oneself, right, so you're revealing yourself. And so that's where the idea is like, oh, it's actually revealing your body, right, you're kind of revealing your soul and connecting in that way, whatever the belief is for you. But what we're talking about foundationally is that when you are building intimacy, it's about revealing yourself. So that is what you're saying, which is, I reveal my ideas to you, I reveal my dreams to you, I reveal my fears to you my vulnerabilities. When I'm hurt, I reveal that I'm hurt to you, right. And so this is what intimacy is about. And this is why depth is so important. Because the longer your relationship is, and the more you are together for a long period of time, the more you're going to have to go into that depth, which means that you and I, we reveal things about ourselves to each other now, then we never would have done five years into the relationship,

Kate MacDougall
right. And also, we're growing as people we're changing as people things are coming up, things have happened in our lives, things have, you know, shifted and changed. And we need to keep opening up to each other. Because I can't just assume that you're the same Eric that I married a very long time ago.

Speaker 1
Okay. That's all good. That's

Kate MacDougall
what I was gonna say. But I know, it's because I had 20 in my head. And I was like, we were not married for 20 years, but whatever. And you're not the same marriage as that many years ago. So however many years ago, and so it's very important for me to check in with you and to keep listening to you and keep getting to know you, in an emotional way. So that, you know, I continue to understand where you're at and what you're feeling. And by opening up to another person, you can also open up about, you know, sexual things. That's where you can open up about, you know, what you're comfortable with, what your dreams are, sexually, what your fantasies are, what are things that you think of, when talking about sex? This is a good time to have those conversations to, you know, really get to know your partner, but especially to understand your partner's boundaries. Yeah, because if there's things your partner is uncomfortable with, or maybe there's things they want to explore, but they're kind of shy and don't really know how to approach it. You know, I've always kind of wanted to try this, but I'm not really sure how to go about it. Well, this is the perfect moment. You know, you don't want to be in an intimate, physical, intimate moment. You're both laying naked in bed and you're like, Yeah, wanna try that? It's not, you're probably gonna get Got the aura like a forest? Yes. So the best time to bring it up is when you're having those emotional, intimate moments where you can, you know, you're both dressed everything is, you know, you're just having some time together. And you're getting to know each other sexually. You're asking questions, what are you? What do you like? What do you dislike? What are your limits? What are your boundaries? What are you know, things that you're willing to say yes to? Or things that are hard? No. And

Eric MacDougall
I think it's really important. So we're already kind of deep into our second point with communication, right, which is really important. Essentially, like, you know, the first one is really to understand Missy, the second one is communications we're talking about you have to communicate about these things. And you know, your emphasis is really what you're talking about is communicating about sex, but it doesn't even have to be about sex, you can just communicate in terms of how you like to be touched. Right? What what you enjoy about your partner, what body part, like, all those kinds of things, you know, literally, you could just talk about, you know how you were looking at each other's hands and touching his hands, and saying, I like this, I like that I like when you scratch me this way. It does not have to be all the time communicating about sex, it can also be communicating about your dreams, your fears, all these things. This creates intimacy, right? I've spoken to a lot of couples. And sometimes we're like the woman, you know, she just keeps saying, like, I don't want to have sex, I don't have sex, because it's too vulnerable and too revealing to say, the type of sex we have caused me pain. And I don't want to talk about the pain because then we have to get into like what's wrong and who's doing what wrong. So it's actually just easier for me to say, I don't have sex with you. Right? But that is because it's very revealing to say that to someone say it causes me pain, or it might be revealing to say I want I fantasize about this, what do you think, you know, doesn't make me a pervert, or because you don't know how your partner is gonna respond. And that is what intimacy is all about. It takes risk. And so really, one understand that, you know, our second point is all about communication. And so communicating your dreams, your fears, what you enjoy what you don't enjoy, right, your boundaries, all that stuff, is a really important part. If you're not communicating in an open, vulnerable, intimate way. And you're not revealing yourself to your, your partner, then it's very hard to create intimacy. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And so I can already, you know, imagine that we have some people listening right now who are probably like, I would love to have this karyotype conversation with my partner, but we haven't had sex and like, months, years, maybe. And I don't even think we're at a place where I can have this discussion. I don't even think I'm at a place where I can walk up to her that my partner her or him whatever, and say, Hey, what are some positions you'd like to try? So what would you say to a listener who might be wondering, like, what's kind of a non threatening way, for me to bring up sex to my partner was a non threatening way for me to talk about my sexual desires, or get to know their sexual desires and boundaries, that's not threatening, that's not going to make them feel like, Hey, I'm going to talk about this, and then we're gonna go to the bedroom and have sex.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And so one of the things I always think about is, how do we get on the same page? That's like, where, like, how do we create a starting point, we're essentially both the starting line, right? That's what you want. Because if you start a conversation, and you're immediately on opposite ends, now you have to have to try to get on the same page. And so the first thing I want to think is, you know, a lot of times what I like to say is, okay, let's admit that people have sex. Yep. Like, that's the starting point. Because it's super human, new, normal human thing exactly. That something's humans do is have sex, and we agree on that. Right? And then it's like, yeah, okay, if humans do that, okay. Then we can talk about go maybe the next step, which is, what were some of the sexual experiences that you enjoyed, right in your life? What was that? Like? If it starts to much go even slower? Right? And maybe like, Hey, what are the things that bring you pleasure? What are the things that you really enjoy? Like, what are ways you like being touched? Me? Like, I don't like being touched then. Okay, now, take the conversation that down that rabbit hole, Hey, what is it that feels kind of invasive to you, but being touched, right? And all you're doing now is inviting your partner to open up? It's not about trying to bring them somewhere. It's actually more about having a conversation and being curious and kind of leading them into themselves, right? That's what you want. So if you go, like, if you start the conversation, and you're like, Hey, I'd love to have a conversation with you. I guess, like, I just want to start by kind of agreeing that sex is something people do, right? It's kind of the basis. I'm kind of being facetious here, like a little bit funny. But if your partner disagrees on that, well, then now you're like, Okay, now we got something else. You actually have to go beyond that, which is like, hey, at this point, maybe talk to a professional. Well, yeah, like maybe, like, start to understand and I mean, I think if you really look within, like, start understanding what's the what is your partner, what's leading to the guardedness? Right? And so I do think that's really important. Understand, but I think at the basis, you can say, hey, so sexy, so many people do. I'd love to know, you know, what are some things that bring you pleasure? And if you don't talk about sex, start with pleasure. Start with joy. What are things that bring you joy?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I would add to that, I would even say before even having that conversation I would tell the listener Well, where are you at in the security of your marriage? Where are you at in the safety of your marriage? Is this even something that should be brought up? You know, did did your person just live a trauma and you know, maybe they're still getting over it, you know, the loss of somebody they love, or maybe something terrible happened to them, maybe their health has been kind of on on the fritz for a while, and, and so you don't want your first, you know, emotional, intimate conversation to be about sex? So have you created other emotional safety conversations? Have you been intimate and other ways, emotionally with your partner? Have you talked about the fears of what happened in their lives lately? You know, have you created that safety to show them like, Hey, I'm your person, I'm that safe space for you. And it's okay, I'm here. If you haven't done that, if you haven't helped your partner heal, what they're going through that stopping you guys possibly from having sex? Well, the don't start with that conversation, start by creating some emotional safety in your relationship. And that might take months years to do. So. Just be very aware of the timing of this conversation. Be very aware of like, when you're communicating about sex, or when you're communicating about desires or boundaries, or whatever, like, where's your partner's head at? Are they feeling safe in the relationship? And then, you know, take conversation from there.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, that's a great pivot into our third point, which is all about boundaries. And I do think that really being clear on what your boundaries are, what your partner's boundaries ours, and then really respecting them from a place of love. Boundaries are not there to like put a bunch of red tape and prevent things from happening. Boundaries are there for you know, we talked about it in the group of like, It's about loving yourself and the other person at the same time, that's where the boundaries are there. So you can do both. And, you know, we go even a step further to talk about in the group, which to say like boundaries are sexy, right? It is super secure for you, when you know what your partner's boundaries are. One of the things and we don't necessarily talk about this too much on the podcast, but like, one of the best things that we ever did to our sex life was to create boundaries. And when I was very clear about your boundaries, right, we had a boundary, which was, you know, for you, it was like, I don't want to experience discomfort, when so if I don't feel connected, and I don't feel pleasure during our sex life, I'm going to stop. And so we came up with that agreement. And I was like, yes, 100% You need to stop. Right? So even if it's, I'm plugging, enjoying myself laughing but you know, really having a great time and you're not enjoying it.

Kate MacDougall
You're stopping it. If you're laughing during sex. That's, that's strange to me. Some people might be just, yeah, just like, that's weird. So if you're laughing, and like, I was laughing, I'm like, You almost said it. Maybe that's your

Eric MacDougall
thing. But I do want to say so because I knew that that was your boundary. And because I trusted you to uphold your boundary, what that created was a lot of more freedom in me. Yeah. Right. Because I didn't have to be like, as Kate like, this is Kate enjoying it? Like, is she gonna say anything? Oh, is this too much? Is this too too forceful? It's too. But instead, it's like, oh, I can just do what I want. And then sometimes, you know, I would do something. And I was like, Oh, that might sound that's pretty wacky. And then the end, you're like, that was great. And I'm like, awesome.

Kate MacDougall
Good thing. I went for it. I trusted that you would say, yeah, right. And even further than that, even before setting that boundary, we had set a boundary saying we are not having sex unless it's yes. For you. And yes, for me in a true Yes. Because oftentimes, especially in the beginning of a relationship, and you know, when I was young and dumb, I used to have sex just because I thought that I had to have sex to please my man. Like, that's the I thought that was my job as a girl was to have sex and please, the man to give up your body for the man. That's it. Got it. Yeah. So that's kind of the belief I grew up with. And I eventually grew up and realized, like, that is very unhealthy. And no wonder I don't want to have sex. I'm only having sex to please somebody else not having sex to please me. So anytime you would initiate or mention like, Hey, can we have sex? And I wasn't feeling it? I would say no, yeah, because we got to a place where we no longer wanted to have forced sex. We wanted to have sex that was truly meaningful, where we both felt good about it, where we felt both were into it. And that created a lot of safety in us

Eric MacDougall
and especially that like, you know, what we'd agreed upon. I remember when you were saying no, in those times, like it was like a thank you. Yeah, right. Like thanks for upholding like our alliance. Yeah. So holding our commitment.

Kate MacDougall
So boundaries are actually like an act of love. It's showing you like, not only do I love myself enough to set these boundaries, but I trust that you love me enough to respect those boundaries. And that's where that emotional safety comes in. If you're if I'm upholding boundaries, and you're respecting them, that's going to be so that's going to do now numbers for our relationship when it comes to physical intimacy, if I can trust that at any point, I'm allowed to say, stop. And Eric is going to stop, then. Yeah, I'm in. Like, if I can trust that at any point, I can say, You know what, I thought I was into this, but I'm really not so. I'm good. I'm gonna go to bed and that Eric's not gonna get all huffy and puffy about it. Like,

Unknown Speaker
I'm gonna get blue balls. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
Like some guys, maybe, or maybe now some guys say, No, it's true. And I think that's one of the ways actually thinks it's like a scientific thing. Yeah. All right. So

Eric MacDougall
I think that's, uh, yeah, I want to keep moving here, because I'm gonna get to even if we don't. But yes, I do think that that is a massive shift where, you know, if a man doesn't initiate or a woman initiates. And the partner says, No, thanks. Not tonight, that the person actually from a place of love, like honors and respects that thank you. Yeah. And you might not be there yet. But at least don't be like butthurt and kind of throw a fit.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And it truly meant a lot to me when I would say no. And sometimes it happens. You say no. And it's like, thanks. Thanks for being open with me. Thanks for saying no, because I would rather you not force yourself to have sex with me and lay there like a starfish than just got a visual of you laying there like a star.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. But I want to say like, you know, as we kind of keep moving to our last point, you know, sometimes when we're sharing this, and I say no, or you say no, it's not always like a yes or no, sometimes it's like, hey, let's try. And you will be okay with saying, let's, let's try knowing that you can stop at any point. Exactly. Sometimes you're like, you know what, let's see. Let's see where it goes. It's not

Kate MacDougall
super open to it. But sometimes if I start, I get into it. Yeah. But if I, if I've started, and I'm like, yeah, it's just not, I'm just not getting it. And

Eric MacDougall
then you're able to say no, thanks. I'm not like, Okay, thanks. That's good. You know, yeah. And that's important. It's important for me to know your boundaries and respect them from a place of love. Yeah, exactly. So our last one is, have activities together. I mean, other than sex Well, other than sex and conflict. I mean, if you're only having sex and conflict with your partner, you need to rethink your partnership in terms of like, adding more fun things. Yeah. And so this is the idea of like, having shared activities that are not just sex, I listen to sounds crazy. And you know, a lot of marriages are like this. I've talked a lot of people where they do nothing, but then they have sex, like three times a week, and that kind of works for them, which is fine. But I would really encourage you to start to do things with your partner, that are not just like sex in the business of marriage. Right? Have activities together, have hobbies, together, set goals together, achieve things together, paint a room together? I don't know. Right. But I think it's really important to have activities you do together a lot of couples, you know, we used to do all the time, like workout together as a big deal for us, right? sit and play board games together. I know, couples certainly play board games twice a week. And that is an act of intimacy. Right?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I think going back to like the beginning of the episode, when I was talking about, you know that that couple maybe that's like, you know, the wife or the husband just kind of went through something difficult and, and like sex is the last thing on their mind, like having shared activities, where you guys can start laughing together, having fun together, creating that kind of playful environment together, will create more connectedness will create more opportunity for your partner to feel like a little more open to the physical intimacy, because it creates again, that security that safety that like, hey, like, I trust you, you trust me, actually doing like, team building exercises are great for this, like, going to escape room, we've done that we've done a virtual reality escape room. And it's like, I had to work together and we had to work together. And like, even though I it's virtual in my head, it was very real. We were being attacked by dragons. And obviously, it was very real, because I was yelling very loudly. And Eric was like, oh my god, Kate, this is just a game

Eric MacDougall
yelling was real.

Kate MacDougall
It's real. I was really in sweat. But like, it created this connectedness between us because it was like, we managed to kill the dragons together.

Eric MacDougall
100% we achieve something together. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
but so you know, being playful, having fun finding shared moments, like whether you're the couple having sex, a lot of times during the week or the couple having sex that hasn't had sex and like years, creating that connectedness will grow up, make you grow closer will help with that safety and security. So you know, like you said, some people have their physical intimacy is like right up there, like top notch, everything's great, but they have no emotional safety. So those shared activities and those playful things that you do together will create Get more of an emotional intimacy with your partner. And if you don't really have strong emotional intimacy, those shared activities are going to strengthen that emotional intimacy, which will lead then to more physical intimacy. Yeah, absolutely.

Eric MacDougall
And I think having fun with another person, like, it's attractive, right, it's attractive when we're together. And I see you come out of your shell and have fun and kind of do activities together. So whatever your thing is, right? If it's cooking, if it's wine tasting, if it's traveling, like, just doing the shared activities together, is very intimate and strengthens a partnership. So that you can have that as a foundation, you know, when you step into the sexual realm? Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
So the whole point of this episode, you know, for us was really to, you know, tell the partner who really wants to have sex who's really missing that because it's, it's okay. It's okay, that that's how you want to connect with your partner. Absolutely. You don't have to be embarrassed about it. You don't have to be shy about it, it's absolutely normal for you to have physical desires, and physically want to connect with your partner, it's okay for you to want those things. You're not wanting it too much. You may not want might be wanting it, you know, and if you're not wanting it, you're not wanting it too little. Everyone is where they're at. Right?

Eric MacDougall
That's right. And at the same time, yeah, like you said, it's totally okay for your partner not to want it right now. Right.

Kate MacDougall
So I understand that our natural reflexes, as you know, humans is when we want something, we go get it. But doing that, when it comes to sex is not good, it's not going to get you the results you want. It's either gonna get forced sex, or it's just gonna grow that emotional safety further and further and further away. So be patient, it will happen. If you take sex off the table, if you just really, really practice creating emotional safety, emotional intimacy between you and your partner, the sex will come, you just need to really focus on that emotional intimacy. Instead of focusing so much on we need to have sex, we need to have sex, we're not having sex, I want to have sex. If you're going up to your partner, and you're saying, I want to have sex, we need to have more sex, we're not having sex, sex, sex, sex, your partner is going to get further and further and further away from you. And that emotional safety is going to take more and more time to get back to So focus on emotional safety and emotional intimacy in order to start having sex again. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
absolutely. Love that. So you think about the four, right? It's really understanding what intimacy is go way beyond just this idea of sex. There's so many ways you can connect intimately with your partner, right? I even think about physical affection, right? Which like, how do we share physical affection, outside of the sexual realm and how connecting that is to hold hands to cuddle to just have your legs on beings. Then create a dialogue around it, start communicating about it, right, communicate about your hopes, your dreams, your fears, your desires, like all those things, right? If you're you can even communicate about the sexual realm. If that feels good to you. Then think about boundaries and get clear about your boundaries, your partner's boundaries, and respect them from a place of love, right? That's a sign of love that you respect your partner's boundaries. And then finally, think about your activities right outside of the sexual realm. And how can you be together, doing things together that create a closer bond?