In this throwback episode, Kate and Eric argue about the difference between effecting and efficient, Kate talks about how she initiates sex, and we share our common communication patterns (you can probably all relate to)

Topics:
➡️ Why being effective doesn't always mean easier
➡️ Playing to your strengths
➡️ Why being understood is more valuable than getting your message across
➡️ How say "yes dear" might do more harm than good

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Eric MacDougall
Efficient is essentially, yeah, it's like, the least amount of energy to create the most impact. Sorry, that was that was efficiently. If you do things efficiently, it's like, likely, yeah, you do things with like, you know, the least amount of force to get the maximum, you use a wheelbarrow to get sand instead of a, that will be very efficient instead of carrying it with your hands. Okay, gotcha. And then, and then effectively, I would say, depending on what's happening effectively is more clear. So I would say it's effective as it has the impact. But it doesn't mean necessarily that it's more quickly or takes less energy. Yeah. So again, that wouldn't be very efficient that I just put those words together. But what I would say is, yeah, so effectively doesn't always mean faster. To be honest, we're talking about communication today. Oftentimes, effective communication, at the beginning, takes a lot more effort and work to get there. Yeah, you get to a place where you can effectively communicate with practice, right? Because like anything else, it's a skill.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And the more you do it, the more you practice it, the better you get at it, hence, why Eric in our relationship is the most effective communicator. I tried to communicate efficiently. I'm like, this is the exact conversation over with, I'm like, Okay, I need to talk to Eric about something serious. So I'm going to talk about APC, Eric, ABC, and you're like,

Eric MacDougall
Why does water relate with Kate? Essentially, this is what you do in a conversation. This is what Kate does. I'm gonna put you in a box here. Go for it. So Eric and Kate get into a conversation. The first thing that goes through Kate's mind is what do I need to give Eric here so he goes away? To give him what he wants.

Kate MacDougall
So are you a man I'm like, yeah.

Eric MacDougall
I'm like, wait, and I'm telling you, some people will relate To this, maybe unconsciously you're doing it. But most of the time our communication, if you're conflict avoidant or you do not like getting into intense conversations, most of your energy goes to mind mapping your partner trying to understand what they want, and then giving it to them. So they go away. Yes, yeah, you're not worried about follow through, you're not worried about agreements.

Kate MacDougall
And honestly, this is what happened. And this is why this topic is coming up. We were laying in bed the other night, and I said, Hey, Eric, I need to talk to you about something. And it was something that's been weighing on my heart, I talked to my coach, and she helped me come up with some strategies and some ideas on how I can get past this, like, need I have to this want, I want. I mean, fast forward backup, my mind is like, yeah, I want to lead more in our relationship. I want to, you know, take the lead, I want to initiate things I want to be more open about my desires. This is something I really, really want. But I have a lot of setbacks when it comes to that. I'm like nervous about what that might look like, and how that might affect other people around me. And especially that like when if you're in a funk, like, I can't ask you for anything, because you're in a funk. Like, how dare I say like, oh, Eric, I know you're in a funk. But I also would like this, like, well, that'd be too much. Yeah. So instead, I just repressed my needs. Forget that I even have some. And I'm like me, I'll just follow Eric all the time. I'll just follow if the kids say jump, I'll say how high if Eric's like jump, I'll say how high if my mom's like, jump, I'm like, how high like, Kate doesn't exist anymore. I just

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And when you do want something, typically, this is what happens is a big part of the conversation we had, when you do something you just kind of slide it in, so it's not direct. So you know, an example would be like, if you would like to go for a walk with me, and you really want to hang out with me and go for a walk. You would not say Hey, Eric, I would like to go for a walk with you. Does that work for you this evening? instead? You would say? It would start with saying Do you have any plans this evening? No, not really, I really thought I'd be like, huh, do you want to go for a walk? There would be like, Well, that was not really and then you'd be like, okay, instead of going to say like if you came to me and you said, Eric, I would like you to go for a walk with me? Is that something you could do? Well, then I'd be like, oh, man, I would love to provide that for you. Like you have a need. It's a request, I would love to make that happen. That's it. But again, that's much more revealing vulnerable to ask because it's more much more susceptible to be refused,

Kate MacDougall
right? So I was having a conversation with my coach the other day about that, about how that's really hard for me to do for me to go up there. It can be like, or anybody, not just Eric, but anybody in my life and be like, Hey, I desire this, would you be willing to give it to me? That's very, very hard. For me. It's very vulnerable for me, and I don't love doing it. So I don't do it. And so she was explaining to me that, you know, if this is something that's hard for me, the if I just say, Okay, I'm gonna start doing it. While I'm probably not because my mind is gonna resist to it, right? Because it's not comfortable, because it's not something that I feel that makes me feel good doing. It doesn't bring me joy. It doesn't make me feel good. It's going it's nerve racking, my body's gonna look at that, like, I'm trying to face a lion. And no human. No animal wants to do that. No animals gonna be like, I'm scared shitless of this line, but I'm just gonna go ahead and beat it up anyway. Right? So she said, let's find a strategy that helps you that's not as far as beating up the lion, but at least you're walking out of the cage, and you're looking at it in the eyes. And you're like, I'm here. I'm just here.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. Like, what is what is a step or a few steps in the right direction? You want to go without

Kate MacDougall
necessarily having to pet the exact right. So I came, we came up with strategies together. So the whole plan laying all that full circle, we're laying in bed, and I'm like, Eric, we need to talk. And then he was like, Okay, so in my head, I was like, here's what I want to say to Eric. These are the three points I want to pass on to Eric. And then he's probably going to say, yes, babe. And that'll be that and we'll be done the conversation and that's good. Yeah, you'd frame this conversation in your mind. It was like, perfectly framed. So I go up to you and I'm like, Hey, Eric, ABC. Okay, okay. But that wasn't your reaction. You weren't like, Okay, babe, I love you. Thank you so much for opening up to me. Like Like I had perfectly planned in my head. You were like questions, questions, questions, questions, questions, communication question question. And I'm like, This is not how it was supposed to go. Right. This was a one minute me telling you this conversation is no longer efficient. This conversation is is becoming effective. And I don't like it and you want to you want to say what happened afterwards, I got mad, and I got very mad. Yeah. turned around. And I said, withholding sex from you tonight. Yes, you did say it's more of like a joke, right? That's okay. But

Eric MacDougall
But yeah, we got it. But the idea is that, because the type of communication you want to have with me, was not received in the way you want it to be received. You are frustrated.

Kate MacDougall
Right, exactly. But then stepping back now, a few days later, I'm looking at that situation. And I'm like, Man, Mike, and you even said it in the conversation after I was like, oh, mad at you. And I turned around and pounded. You were like, Babe, can I say something to you? And I was like, Yes. And then you went on and on really long lead to tell me that.

Eric MacDougall
I felt lonely. In all fairness, it was like a minute and a half, but to you feels probably 10 hours. I got it.

Kate MacDougall
I got so many examples. Question.

Kate MacDougall
I'm really good at communicating. And if you ever need help with communication, I'm happy to help you. And I was like, That's what

Eric MacDougall
I said to you. Yeah. I said, Hey, the same way, you know, now that you're bringing it back, you're right, I did walk walk you along this journey

Kate MacDougall
to get there to visualize before I got your

Eric MacDougall
academic skills and go to you. And based on your power, your pattern of your life, you understand that there was a trap? At the end of this? Yes, I'm like, Okay, where are you going with into something where

Eric MacDougall
I'm gonna say something that makes them with

Kate MacDougall
teachers taking care of her kids? Academics? I'm like, yes. Alright, guys, I know.

Eric MacDougall
Also, that perfect example, was not a good example of effectively communicating for me, I could have just said, Hey, just a heads up, like I studied communication, I get it efficient. Yeah, if you need some help with communicating exactly what it is you want, we can take five minutes, we can talk about that. And I can make sure that your message gets across,

Kate MacDougall
right. So digesting that whole conversation for the next for the past few days. I've realized that like, Hmm, why am I trying to do this on my own? Like, yes, I had my coaches help. But why am I going into conversations with this idea of like, say, ABC, Kate, and then shut up and make sure everything's done? And then don't say anything else? And oh, my gosh, if he says anything, I don't even know. I don't even know what I'm gonna do. Like, why not go in with like, I'm gonna say, ABC, and then we're gonna get curious about how Eric feels about ABC. Yeah. So instead of, of going in with this rigid plan of this is exactly how it's gonna go. That leaves me more open with like, Hey, Eric, here's the ABC. Here's my ideas. Here's what I want to talk about. The floor is yours.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I think you know, I love it. You said that, because I think in the end, like you, you know, in the end, but like, before you end up expressing this stuff to your partner, you have to be clear on what your intention is. Because in this case, right, if your intention would have been, I want to express this to Eric, and I want to make sure he understands me, and understands exactly what I mean, when I say these things, you would probably be in a different energy to really make sure that I understand, right? So you would express yourself, you would say this, and you say, hey, you know, one of my priorities here is that you really understand what I'm saying, why don't you tell me exactly what you think I just said, like, in your own words, and then you would create space for that. I think a lot of times, what happens is, we overlook that intention, in our conversations with our partner, most of the time, the intention when we think about saying something to a partner is I'm gonna lay down the law. Look, I'm going to tell them exactly how I feel.

Kate MacDougall
And that's how I went in. Yeah, I was like, I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna tell them the exact plan that I came up with my coach. And that'll be that, whether he likes it or not, that's what I'm doing.

Eric MacDougall
If that was your intention, you were really successful. Thank you, right. You're, you're just like, blah. And then I'm like, if you know, hey, I have some questions. Right. Sorry. No questions. This time. I'll be taking questions next week. Like

Kate MacDougall
it's over. Like, it was like a conference.

Eric MacDougall
I would love to take questions. Please reach out to my PR firm. But yeah, so but the reality is, is that like, if that really is your intention is we have to be honest with yourself. Sorry, Eric. This wasn't a conversation. I just wanted to and then I could say, Okay, that's great. I just want you to know that I didn't understand anything you just said. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And I think honestly, what bugged me the most about it was the questions you were asking totally made sense. So I won't say what I was saying. So I don't care. Like whatever judgment if you want, I don't get, but I was like, Hey, Eric, the way I feel safe leading is I'm just going to like, kind of hint things. So I want you to understand that when I say Hey, Eric Maybe we can go for a walk this afternoon. What I'm actually saying is, Eric, let's go for a walk.

Eric MacDougall
I want to go for a walk. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
I want to go for a walk with you. These are the words that should be coming out of my mouth. But it's safer for me to be like, maybe could just maybe like maybe that would be kind of nice if we went for a walk. Yeah, that translates to me requesting.

Eric MacDougall
And that was like, what if I can add to it? That was kind of where you're saying, like, you know, and Eric, I need you to kind of pick that up. And then make sure we go for a

Kate MacDougall
walk. Yeah, and kind of the same thing. Like, I'm not really good at initiating. That was the woman. I was in.
dangerous territory. Go ahead.I was like, I was like, Eric, if I'm like, dress kind of like sexier. Like I'm not like in my flannel pajamas. If I'm like wearing like cute underwear and like a cute bra. That's me initiating. So you don't want to have that means I want to have sex. So that's kind of me going like, Hey, Eric, I want to have sex with you like, but without actually saying it because that's threatening, I need to know. So when you see me in like some cute underwear in a cute bra, you need to know that I want to have sex, right? And so and

Eric MacDougall
also take responsibility for that us having such

Kate MacDougall
a bad idea. So anyways, so

Eric MacDougall
So my first question was

Kate MacDougall
no, your first calm? Oh, it

Eric MacDougall
was a statement. That's right.

Kate MacDougall
Thank you for letting me know, I appreciate you saying that. And opening up, I understand that it's difficult for you to come out and openly say that. But I just want you to understand that sometimes you might be in your cute bra and panties. And I won't notice or I'll forget what we just talked about. And I won't have sex with you. And I want you to be ready to be disappointed sometimes. Because I might not always remember that. That's you initiating. Yeah. So

Eric MacDougall
and also that, like, I'm okay with that. Like, that's kind of what I said, right? I was like, I'm okay with you dropping hints. I'm gonna try to catch them. Yeah, what I don't catch them, there's a possibility that you will be disappointed, especially if you drop multiple hints. And in a sequence of hints, I do not pick them up. Yeah, I want you to know that I am okay with trying this out. But I'm also okay with you being disappointed and coming back to me later and saying, Hey, I'm really disappointed. I'd be like, Okay, makes perfect sense that you're disappointed based on the agreement we've made for you to act this way. And for me to respond this way. Right.

Kate MacDougall
So then I was like, Well, this is not going away. In my head, this was happening in my head. And so I was just like, Well, anyway, so I'm just going to be hinting things because so I just kept pressing on with my point. I was like, like, at this point, I'm like, trying to shove it down your throat like, okay, so Eric, I just need you to understand that I'm really, really not I don't feel comfortable coming out and being like, Eric, I want him Linux. Like, that doesn't make me feel safe. That doesn't make me feel comfortable. So that's what I'm gonna do. And you were like, okay, that's fine. It's just and then you were asking questions. And what if you tried this? And what if you tried that instead? Don't you feel that that's kind of what we already do? Like, how, how is this different than what you already do? And I was just like, Oh, my God, right, stop, stop, stop and stop and stop it. And so I got frustrated. And I was like, end of conversation. Thank you very much for not listening and accepting everything that I just said. Yeah. And because of that, it was a very inefficient conversation.

Eric MacDougall
You're right. And I want to say that, I don't know that I would have showed up any differently. Like, even after this conversation now. Maybe I would have validated you more. Maybe I would ask less questions right away in the moment may be able to follow it up, like another day or whatever. But it was important to me to understand you. Right, one of the big challenges that I find couples have or people have in general, is we communicate, and it's very ambiguous. And I do this testing, I talk to a lot of men, like over chat in person, like I talked a lot of people. And the amount of times where I asked a very direct question. person talks for one or two minutes, and they ended up one or two minutes. I'm like, Hey, I really want to be honest here. Like, you didn't really say anything if that's one of our experience. Yeah. And also, like you didn't even ask, not only did you not answer my question, but you actually didn't say anything, right? Other than like, just replaying what you've already talked about.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, like you would legit ask like, when's your birthday? And the person's like, well, last week, we celebrated my birthday, but it was actually a while ago, and then he's they're going on to happen and we used to have like cake and now we don't really have cake and it makes me sad that I don't really have cake for my birthday anymore. And you're like, so when's your birthday? Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
and I get it right when you're especially when you're asking About different, very specific topics, like what's happening is, when you're being questioned. And especially like, you're you're being asked these real questions like, Hey, can you explain to me exactly what you mean by this? It can be very revealing. It's like, what do you mean? Like, I'm, I'm talking like, Can't you just accept what I'm saying? Right? And it's like, no, I can't. Like, if your intention is for me to understand you, I will put more effort into understanding exactly what you're saying, right? And to some people, because we don't really live in a society, it's very likely, but because we don't really live in a society where we really care all that much about what's going on with other people beyond the surface level. It we're not used to being seen

Kate MacDougall
at that light. It's very invasive, invasive, and kind of throws you off balance. Threatening, right, like, well, like, I told you, I was good. Yeah, but why are you digging further?

Eric MacDougall
Exactly. And it's like, Oh, okay. You just like, you seem a little bit on edge. And now it's like, wait a minute, like, what do I do? Like, you're like, No, this is the context of the conversation. You stay here. Yeah. And what I'm telling, you know, everybody who's listening to this, like, if you're doing that within your relationship, like if your partner's saying something and you don't understand them, and then you're just like, Yeah, okay, honey. Right. It's like, that is not good. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And in this example of me opening up to you in bed the other night, like, you could have easily done exactly what I dreamt of you doing and been like, okay, honey, that's great. Thank you. But then it would have led to disappointment later. Well, yeah, you didn't, you know, take my hints as me leading, or, you know, if you kind of did something like I walked around with a T shirt and pants on, and you'd be like, oh, there's that sexy outfit you told me about? And I was like, No, did you even hear me? Right? Like, and so it opens up a whole other problem. And I think what we learned through therapy coaching, like, it's very easy to put your spouse in the enemy role. It's very easy to put the other person in this role. When you feel misunderstood. You're a bad guy. Yeah. Like you're purposely trying to not understand me right now. And that's what I that's what was going through my head right now. I'm like, you're purposely trying to piss me off right now. Like, you see that I'm trying to talk here. And you're purposely like, scratching at the surface being like meaning. And that's not what you were doing. You were getting curious, you are truly trying to understand. And if only I could see that in that moment. If only I could have seen that and been like, Kate, Eric is not the enemy here. The message you were trying to send the unclear message. That's the enemy. Yeah. And together, that's what you and Eric need to work on right now is helping him understand this unclear message.

Eric MacDougall
So that's why you don't want to take it one step further and say it I think it's the miscommunication that needs to be worked on. Because to you your message was clear. Right? Yeah. Right. So to say it's an unclear message would be essentially a judgment from my perspective, right? Because to me, it was unclear. But maybe to you was perfectly clear. I feel like it was right, exactly. That's what I mean. Like, it's, we were raised differently. We use different words in different belief systems, like, you don't mean like in the end. So and this happens all the time in relationships. How many times? Do I see couples? And it's like one couple of saying, Oh, you just don't get it. And other couples, like, you just don't get it? And it's like, well, this is weird. Neither of you get each other.

Kate MacDougall
Can you stop blaming each other? And let's work on the communicate. Yeah, let's get like, what problem is in Kate, the problem isn't Eric, the problem is the message.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And it's not like the way it's being passed back and forth. It's like picking up static all around. Exactly.

Kate MacDougall
So. So let's keep our couple bubbles safe by being like, hey, high five, we're a team. We're gonna get through this. Yeah. Right now, I can see that you're not understanding what I'm trying to say. Right? And you clearly are showing me that. So maybe you can help me or get this message through to you a little easier. And that's what we mean by like, helping your spouse communicate more effectively. It's, if you inwardly can look inside and be like, Okay, well, I don't feel like I'm being understood here. And it's not because Eric dislikes me or he's trying to piss me off or he's purposely doing it. He's not the bad guy here. Eric is truly truly loves me, really, really does love me, and he wants to hear me out.

Eric MacDougall
I trust that you have to assume your partner's positive intent. Exactly.

Kate MacDougall
So I'm assuming your positive intent. I'm assuming that you love me enough to try to understand what I'm saying. So instead of seeing you as the bad guy and be like, Oh, my God, Eric, Would you just shut up and listen to me and stop asking me questions? Just thank you. Yes, okay, just say yes. Just slow that down and ask your partner. Hey, Eric, I'm not feeling really understood right now. And I don't think you're understanding me. Or maybe I'm not being clear, like, explain to me what you're understanding right now. Right? And help me help you understand what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And be open for the discussion to go in another direction. Because as we saw with our example, like it was going in another direction, my initial idea wasn't necessarily the best idea for a relationship. But had I slowed it down, saw the conflict, as saw the miscommunication as a problem, instead of Eric as the problem. Who's against me? I saw okay. There's a miscommunication here. Help me understand what's your understanding. And then we could have talked together, we could have brainstormed ideas, we could have been like, Okay, here's a new way I'm going to lead without necessarily going in and petting the lion and being like, Hey, Eric, I would like to go for a walk this afternoon with you that would really make me so happy. Can we do that? Because that's unsafe for me still,

Eric MacDougall
right? So how can we work together so that I can help you communicate in that way, not even just in that moment, but really like, Hey, this is my goal here that I want to get to. Exactly. And I need your help in these specific ways. The other thing too, that I want to add, you know, because you're talking a lot about the person who's sharing the message, but the person who's receiving the message, I think, has a responsibility as well. And I'm not just talking about like, you should probably be listening and seeking to understand of

Kate MacDougall
course, okay, unless you understand that, that's, that's the main part.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, exactly. But the other thing, too, is like, you need to understand like, it takes courage to like, share your heart, right? It takes courage to like, say, like, Hey, I'd like to talk to you about something and then try to kind of get your words together to express yourself like, these are topics that not all of us communicate about, right? And oftentimes, vulnerabilities, Sachs, finance, like all this stuff, right? insecurities, like these are topics that are tough to talk about, in general. And so to talk about them with somebody you deeply love, and who somebody who has the power to really crush your heart, essentially, right, because that's a partner can do that, by just not receiving a bid for connection can be very vulnerable. So when you're receiving your partner's message, if you don't understand it, like be gentle and honor that they're opening up a lot of times, what I see is like, you know, men or women, it's like, it's like, oh, you're just not making sense. Or like, Oh, you just need to, like, learn how to talk more clearly. And it's like, essentially, like, it's 100% Your responsibility that I'm not understanding. And I get it, like, the messenger does have some responsibility to try to get their message clear and kindly across from you. But in the end, as the person who's receiving the message, like, put in some effort, like don't be so guarded, and like, hold out incensing like, Hey, I actually want to understand you here, and I honor that you're bringing this to me, you know, and, and listen, like let your partner get their message across. Don't just like,

Kate MacDougall
you know, interrupt them everything. What do you mean? What do you start? What about this? What about starting

Eric MacDougall
that conversation? You're like, hey, is this gonna we wait a minute, like, it's like I literally just said two sentences, right? Can you let me like complete my point here, and then maybe we can have a q&a period.

Kate MacDougall
And I mean, you've obviously been together for a long time, like long enough that you know, your spouse and I'm like, Eric knows that. Communication isn't my strong suit. Communication in front of a bunch of kids. Now I'm really good at crushing Russian I can I can crush also communicating

Eric MacDougall
about topics that are really easy to talk about. Also your crush. Oh, man asked

Kate MacDougall
me. Turtles. Yeah, I will tell you everything I know about a turtle, but talk about emotions, insecurities. I'm sweating. I'm sweating. So because Eric has that information about me, he needs to be extra patient. You know, he needs to understand that. Okay, what is she trying to say here? Like, reading between the lines may be a little okay. This is what I'm understanding. Kate? Is this is this What? No. Okay, start over. Yeah, thanks. Let's, let's keep keep going. Like, and it will take me more time to get the same thing out than it would Eric, if Eric was opening up to me about leading it would have been very efficient, very, you know, quick, but effective effect. That was like, very efficient as well. Yeah, we were like but yeah,

Kate MacDougall
but that's the best practice because my priority was trying to make this conversation. Quick.

Eric MacDougall
You're trying to get in and out. I was in and out. I was like, classic you.

Kate MacDougall
Come on pulleys. I have no control over the in and out.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, so what we really want you all to take away from this episode. I mean, if you're listening to this is think about how you can help your partner. feel understood. Right. So not only encourage them to speak up, but understand that, you know, if communication isn't a strong suit for one or both partners in the relationship that you have to take the slow and them opening up is going to take you holding space for them. You being kind with them, you trying to understand them, but also sometimes you sharing as well, right? Hey, is this is kind of what I'm understanding? Is that what you're trying to lay down here? Right? And they might be like, No, that's not okay. Well, tell me more. Yeah. And I'm, like, start over, because I even that feels a little bit like why. But it's like, Hey, would you tell me more about it, then let's keep working on it. Because I think this is really important. Really want to understand? Yeah, and if you're like, Well, I've kind of been talking Awesome. Okay. So I'll kind of reflect on this conversation and maybe come back later and tell you what I understood. Right? If you're like, I don't wanna talk about this again. Okay, well, I didn't really understand it. I'll try to do my best.

Kate MacDougall
And honestly, like talking to myself here, the more you do it, the easier it will become. That's why I'm really good at talking about kids, because I've done it for 11 years, you know, every single day for 11 years. Like, it's very easy for me. But it's not as easy for me to have these conversations. But if I don't do them, and I avoid them, and I pretend I just, you know, throw my hands up and say these are too hard. I'm not going to do them. I don't know how well I'm never going to learn how to do them. That's right. Yeah. So I do need to put myself in uncomfortable situations. I need to try it. I need to learn a next time. You know what, like I learned from this last conversation we had, I've already learned and next time I have to open up to you, it will be very different because I will have learned from last time. Will it be perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? Probably not. But are you keep growing and keep trying and everything's hard before it's easy.