In this episode, Kate & Eric discuss the importance of personal space in relationships, how to support each other during these times, and effective communication to maintain a strong connection.

Topics:
➡️ Understanding why someone might need space and how it feels.
➡️ Tips for supporting your partner without overwhelming them.
➡️ Ideas for staying connected and showing care, even when apart.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Eric MacDougall:
So we got a question, which is really around, you know, when your partner says, they want a bit of space, right? When they feel smothered, they feel like, hey, it's too much the emotional baggage or the connection has become a little too much for me to bear. And I need a little bit of time for myself. Right. So specifically, the question here is, what is space look like in a marriage? So what are the types of interactions that you should try to have with your wife, when she does ask for space? So maybe from the wife's perspective, you can explain a little bit about what it means to you when you're looking for that space and kind of where that comes from.

Kate MacDougall
I love when our listeners send in these questions because it's just, it makes me reflect and makes me feel kind of normal, like wow, okay, I'm not the only person in this world that needs space. Good. God, God, thank you for the question. For making me feel normal. Yeah, no, honestly, space for me. And I mean, I'm not every woman, but this is space for me. Usually I have something that I'm trying to deal with internally. And I don't know how to talk to you about it yet, nor do I want help from you. And so I would rather deal with it in my head before it comes out loud. And so if you're like, talk to me, you seem off, you seem like something's wrong. I'm gonna be like, buddy, like back away. This is so overwhelming, like I can't even process what is going on in my head. And the problem is, especially if you're a woman with kids, is you don't have time to process these things because you're at work all day. And then you come home and you're with your kids, and you're dealing with their problems, and you're dealing with your work problems. And you're still thinking about what's happening at work, because you're still trying to figure out that problem and trying to deal with that. And then you put yourself on this backburner of like, okay, I'll eventually get to what I need to work on. But but you never get there. Because there's like, all these other things that you're dealing with before. And I know for me, it's really hard to focus on myself and take time to sit and be like, Okay, now I'm going to think about that thing that's been on my mind that I can't even figure out what it is. So I just avoid it. I'm just like, ah, can I push it aside, not pushing it aside. And the more I push it aside, and the more you push for connection for me, the more I'm like, oh, like back away, give me some space. I need space I need. I need you to not talk to me about this about anything. I need you to not point out that I seem stressed. I need you to not point out that i Something seems off. Yeah. Connected. Yeah. Because I know this. I know this. This is all forefront. I'm like, yeah, that's, yep, that's something I put in the back there to deal with later. But I just need to figure out what's what's stopping me. There's something in the forefront that I'm trying to figure out. And I can't deal with all the rest right now.

Eric MacDougall
And then like me engaging with you, like forces it to come to the front. I imagine it's incredibly challenging when I serve, almost like as a reminder that you cannot get away from these challenges, right, that you don't, you're not able to mentally and emotionally kind of shut down, if I am kind of constantly being the embodied reminder that something needs your attention. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
exactly. So I think that when I'm asking for space, or when, you know, I, I'm giving off the vibe that I need space, because I'm not very good at asking for space, but I'll probably give off a vibe, it is because I'm dealing with something internally that I haven't taken, taken time to deal with. And it's very overwhelming. And it's very challenging for me in that moment to find the time to and the more I push it, the harder it is for me to get to that. So I think when I'm asking you for space, what I'm really saying is, I need some time to figure this out. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
and I think about just as you were talking now, you know, one of the parts that I think about is that I am like, kind of a weird way to say this. Really, it's sad to say, but I'm like the least risky option. Like if you think about all these balls, right? For most people, again, it's crazy to say but like your marriage, like your intimate relationship, your closest relationship, because it seems like the most secure one, right? It's almost like the ball you can drop, like, you're not just gonna ignore your kids. Yeah, you're not gonna stop going to work. Right? You're, you're probably afraid that other people are going to, you know, turn away from you, if you stop talking to your friends if you stop, whatever. But when it comes to your partner, you're like, oh, like, you know, they're not going to leave the marriage. If I say I need space. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And we often say that will often refer to the partner as like, a security blanket, right, and your invisible security blanket, it's, I can shit on you, I can yell at you, I can, you know, beat you down, hypothetically speaking, like, and, like, you're, you're still gonna be there for me, you're still gonna come back and I'm safe, right? Like, whether there is safety in the relationship or not, because it is a relationship that, and I think especially in society today, the way we're going it's marriages are disposable. Marriages are something that people can get rid of in a blink of an eye. And if it becomes too much, I can just take the kids and leave like, and that's terrible to think of, but it really is the mentality that our society has taught us about marriage. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And for me, like when I think about as husbands, you know, because one of the stances that I really don't like, is kind of this. You know, I hear this all the time I see it online, like, oh, just focus on yourself, just do your thing, like, you know, just just kind of focus on this side over here. And meanwhile, your partner is going to do them and then one day, they'll come to you and be like, Hey, how's it going? And, and I don't like that because it actually seems like a very disengaged stance. Right? It almost seems like either Okay, well, I'm out. And if you're not, you know, if something happens, it's your fault, because I tried and you didn't. Or it's like, I'm kind of over here. But I'm actually like waiting in anticipation. So what I do is like obsessively spend my time mind mapping you trying to look at what's going on trying to understand when I can jump in. And that's not good, either. Because you can feel that energy. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And I think that that's kind of where the question came in from, right? Like, you're, when you think about, you know, well give them space. Well, what does that even look like? Like? Does it mean completely ignoring them and going on with my life and being all by myself? And like, when they walk by me like ducking and hiding somewhere like, like, takeover? Like, no, like, it's not that. And honestly, when I'm at my healthiest when I'm at my best, I'm good at asking you for what I need. I'm good at being like, Eric, I need some time this weekend to take care of XYZ. And maybe, maybe it's like, I need some time this weekend to clean the bathrooms. And I need you to take the kids out of the house. And you must be like, Well, why are you needing to take time for the bathrooms? Like, don't you want to figure this problem out? Don't you want to talk about this? Don't you want to, and it's like to me, if I'm cleaning the bathrooms, or if I'm vacuuming or if I'm you know, crocheting or whatever it is that I do like that I want to do alone. It's probably just like a way for me to figure this out. Yeah, but quietly, and be in a space where I'm like, I can quietly figure this out. And it's a little bit embarrassing for me to be like, I need some time to sit alone in my thoughts like, and not just embarrassing, but it's just kind of like, it feels impossible for me to be like, I'm just gonna sit and do nothing, and be in my thoughts. So for me, it feels better to be doing something. So whether it's cleaning a toilet and thinking about my problems, or crocheting, thinking about my problems, it feels better than sitting still and thinking about my problems. And that, that sitting still, that kind of mindfulness takes a lot of practice. And like, yeah, Buddhist monks have years and years of studying under the belts for it. But

Eric MacDougall
at present, I wanted to say to something you just said, which I think is important to recognize is that sometimes we say we need space, because maybe, you know, as women or as men too, like, we almost feel ashamed or guilty to, like talk about what we actually need. Right? It's probably really hard for a mother or a wife to say, my kids are driving me nuts. And I actually don't like being around you. Right. And what I need is for me to have time for myself. But I can't say that out loud. Because then I'm you know, bringing a lot of this self judgment of who I am as a mother who has a wife, how much of a failure as I am. So what I say is I need some space, right, which is like the lease threatening to my own inner ego. And so I do want to get to this idea of like, how we can help individuals whose partners are saying they need space and kind of what we can do. But I don't want to negate that, that sometimes, you know, your partner is saying the space because they have a really hard time coming to terms with openly saying what they actually need, right. And sometimes,

Kate MacDougall
and sometimes we don't even know what we actually need exactly the space to figure out what we actually need.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, that's right. And we essentially just need a break. Right. And that's kind of what we need, we need to we need a break from, you know, always having to be on demand for everybody, we need a break from, you know, supporting our husband all the time, emotionally, physically, sexually, right for some of us. And so I do think it's important to recognize that when somebody says they need space, it's because there's a sense of stress of overwhelm, they're really having a hard time, you know, with the burdens that they're putting on themselves, whether somebody else is putting it on them, or they're choosing to hold on to them themselves, just recognizing that. But when I think about, you know, if you were to come to me and say like, I need some space, which happens sometimes. But if you were to literally say like, I need space from you how I would go about kind of approaching that. And for me, I often think about, you know, okay, well I just want to recommend to men in the group, which is you need to now kind of take the reins and step into the driver's seat of not your relationship. But I think like the family system, that's what I think about because in a lot of relationships, the mother takes on a big brunt of the burden of childcare have the mental bandwidth of the emotional drain of taking care of the kids and the husband etc. And so oftentimes I think about, you know, if you were to essentially take the reins, not because you think I need to give my partner a break, but essentially learn the skills to say, you know, I'm going to be like a full time show up dad, like, I'm going to be a leader of this family. I'm going to plan things. I'm really going to be the one that does this. And then I'm going to give my wife the Opportunity, invite her and let her decide whether or not she wants to come along or not. Right. So that would look like on weekends, I would plan the outings for the family. And then I would say, hey, you know, me and the kids are playing and go to this thing, love for you to join us. But if you prefer to stay here, that's okay, too. Right. And so what you're doing now is, you're not like going directly to the problem, and you're not needing to solve your wife's need for space. But you actually kind of step back and think about the big picture. And you're like, how do I create an environment where my wife can decide whether or not she wants to engage or take space, right. And in this case, I'm not looking to her I have to self soothe, I have to be able to take care of my own emotional needs, I have to reach out to my community, right, my my group of men, etc, to support me, because what I'm realizing is that maybe for a long time, you know, we did this in our marriage, I look to you to support me emotionally, and kind of be my everything, I isolated myself to the point where I got rid of a lot of friends, I didn't really open up to anybody except you. And then that created kind of this board functioning system where you had to take care of my ego, you had to make sure that I was okay all the time. And that's kind of where the bridge cracked, right, if you will. And so I think that part of it is, you know, the skill as a partner, is for you to learn how to soothe yourself, for you to learn how to kind of deal with your anxieties reach out outside of the marriage with communities, support communities, family, friends, etc, people you trust. So you can open up about your own feelings, your own anxieties, your fears, and then within the family kind of show up as a leader and carry that torch for a bit. Does that make sense? Is that

Kate MacDougall
totally does. And it's funny, because I'm thinking like, oh, my gosh, that would not, that would not work. But when I think about that would not work. It's because I think that I as a wife have some work to do. You know, I think about like, you know, some friends that I talked to, and they're like, Oh, my husband took on making dinner tonight. And like, how sweet of him, and they're so grateful for it. But at the same time, like the husband doesn't make dinner to the wife's caliber, or the wife's expectations, you know, like they maybe they make like, some chicken and forgot to put some sides and or like vegetables, like there's no vegetables in the meal. But you know, there's a really nice piece of chicken on the plate. Like, I think it's just there's some things that women need to learn to let go of that, you know, my kids not going to have vegetables, like one night this week, like big deal. Like, I need to learn to let go of that. But it's very hard as a wife as a mom to let go of that control. Because it's so habitual for us. And it's just like, Well, how did you not think about this? Like, how did you not think about putting vegetables on the kids plates? Like, How is this not a natural thing for you like or? Why didn't you think of making the lunches at night? Why did you make them in the morning? We make lunches at night all the time, you know that you see it? Why didn't you think of doing that now you're rushing in the morning, and now I feel stressed? Because I'm like, Oh, my gosh, are the lunches gonna get done? And it's like, let it go. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
and I let it go 100%. Because what's happening there is you're essentially reaffirming this belief that it's all up to you. Exactly. That's

Kate MacDougall
exactly. And I do think that that's a trap that we like to kind of stay in, because it helps us avoid having to deal with the real issue. That is, I don't know what's going on inside of me. And I need to take some time and slow down and think about it. But my mom would guilt, my wife guilt, my daughter guilt, whatever is too strong. And I feel like I need to serve too many people that I cannot take that time for myself. So I think that if you're the partner on the receiving end, and you see, you know, your spouse trying to take more space, and you know, telling you like, go sit down, put your feet up, like I got this, like, close your eyes for the mistakes and just be like, thank you. Yeah, and take the time, take the space, whether they're serving KD for dinner, or a gourmet meal doesn't matter. Your kids aren't gonna die. They're fine. Like, they'll survive like, it's, it's learning to let go of that control in order to allow yourself to take the space you need, and it takes practice. It takes time to say it's okay that I'm going to work a little bit later tonight and stay at work to finish this project because I figured out like that's what's been stressing me out. It's a stupid project that's on the back of my mind that if I just put a couple hours in, it'll be done like, or it's okay for you to go and spend time with some girlfriends because you feel like you haven't seen them and like see singers and you have like, all of this guilt every time you want to, like, we need, I think the more you do it, the easier it becomes, of course, itself. Yeah, yeah,

Eric MacDougall
I think about, you know, kind of what you were saying where it's in the end as well like there is another aspect where the partner who is being told that they need that they there's some space that needs to happen, right? That partner needs to trust that if I am going to give you the space, right, so this case, if I were to give you the space, because you're overwhelmed, you're you feel emotionally burden, you feel the mental drain all that stuff, I need to trust that giving you that space, you're going to find ways to heal yourself and come back to me. I think that's that's the big fear, right is that if I give you the space, if I'm not constantly monitoring you, especially if our marriage is not in a good place, that you're actually going to use this space, and you're going to realize, like, Oh, I'm actually kind of enjoying this, I think I'll get separated. And I think a lot of it is, you know, you gotta give your partner trust, you got to give them the benefit of the doubt, right? Sometimes when I'm sure you see me to do it, where it's, you know, it's like, Hey, I'm exhausted, I need a break anytime for myself. And then it's like, okay, here you go, I'll take this. And what ends up happening is, you know, maybe you're looking at me, and I'm just like watching TV for five hours, or you're just like scrolling Instagram. And I'm like, This is not good. Like, yeah, I gave you the space. And now you're scrolling on your phone. This is horrible. Yeah. But what I essentially need to do is to say, no, maybe if Kate this time, yeah, she's gonna scroll Instagram for a couple hours. But eventually, she'll realize that this is not working. Yeah. And that's her journey. And she needs to go down that road. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And we often we've talked about the pendulum analogy, analogy, right, where like a pendulum swings, and sometimes it'll get stuck on one side. And I remember, we went through that where I was like, I need to be more social, I want to be more social. And that was kind of the space I wanted to take. And then the pendulum swung on one side where I became like, hyper social, like I was like, out like three or four nights a week doing things. And it just became a little much, because now we weren't having time as a family. We weren't having time as a couple. So you didn't even have to say anything. You just kind of trusted the process. You're like, okay, it's on our high horse of socializing, like Good for her. And slowly by myself, like, I think it took like a week or two, but like, by myself, I realized, like, Oh, that was honestly like a little too much, little too much. I'll dial it back. So slowly, the pendulum started swinging back to like, equilibrium, right to the middle, where it was like, there's a good middle here, I go out, I see friends, but I also have a lot of time for you and the family and for everything else.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I think, you know, as a partner, you know, what, at least for me, like when I think about you saying you want some space? Like to me, that's something I want to seek to understand. So I can help you. Right, get that space. Yeah, a lot of times we get threatened.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I think I think seeking to understand it's, that's threatening, right when I need space, and I'm in an overwhelmed state for you to be like, what kind of space you need, what can I do to help you? What can I like? I?

Eric MacDougall
Right. So I think that's maybe the problem is like, exactly, you're saying, I don't know, that I would seek to understand by directly asking you questions, okay. I think for me, like, I would mostly focus on observation. Because if you're like, I need space, I'm going like, Hey, sit down, let's do this interview or so I can figure out exactly how to do not do not Yeah, but I think I might, you know, take some time for myself and start to reflect on the state of our homestead. And think about like, oh, wow, like, she does talk about her work a lot and how that's overwhelming. I know that our son has been acting up and I can hear them often, you know, bickering with each other and back and forth. And that's tough. And so I could see that she might have a drain, you know what I mean? And so what can I do in this moment by observing that in order to help you, right, and so then essentially, what, you know, what I would do, and I would I recommend a lot of men do in this situation is, you know, take the chance to do something, take ownership of the situation, that's what I meant by like, leaving the family, right. It's like, hey, you know what, I'm going to take our son tonight, and I'm gonna go hang out with him and do a one on one thing. So just the two of us so we can hang out. And maybe that will relieve some of the pressure for you, right, but also, it'll help my son and we have a conversation, I can talk to him about like, being at home and responsibilities we have and how we respect each other, etc. And by doing that, what happens is I'm not directly engaging with you looking to you for answers, so I can give you what you want. So I could fix it, instead of actually stepping back and focus on second order change, which is, how do I now be a vessel to shift the environment in order to really create a healthy environment, for our family, for relationship for our kids, etc.

Kate MacDougall
And I think all in all, you know, as much as you're giving space to your spouse, that doesn't mean completely ignore the relationship. Forget about your spouse, giving them so much space that they don't even remember what your eye color is anymore. Like, it means checking in being like, Hey, how you doing? That's it, just say Simple question. Not every day once in a while just checking in, hey, how you doing? Can I offer you a foot massage? Can I? You know, do you want to sit down and watch TV with me? If you're noticing, like, they're scrolling on tick tock, they're scrolling on Instagram all the time. Just ask if you can join. Hey, I sit beside you while you're while you're scrolling. Yeah, like, if that feels appropriate. Exactly. And see how they feel about it. Like, no. Okay. That's okay. That's totally okay. Honestly,

Eric MacDougall
I appreciate you responding. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
I just, I miss you. And I want to find time with you. But take the time you need and let me know when you're ready. And that's that that's checking in little bits of engagement here and there. You know, reminding them like, Hey, I'm still here. My eyes are blue.

Eric MacDougall
So it's not Yeah, because it's certainly not smothering? No, but it's also not ignoring. Exactly right. And that's where, again, there is no right or wrong way. It really depends on the person here. Because space might mean a different thing to someone else. And this is where, as we as the partner need to kind of test the waters and be okay with our partner saying, you know, sometimes like, okay, cool, let's watch TV together, or another day saying, eff off, get away from me, then we need to kind of self soothe and be able to kind of regulate ourselves, reach out for support, tell others how we're feeling and all that stuff. So that we can continue to show up with generosity with love, you know, also, like boldly and courageously be real, right? Not allow ourselves to be disrespected, and things like that. But at least, you know, continue to lead in a way that's healthy without smothering or ignoring.