Topics:
➡️ Understanding your partner's deeper needs beyond everyday complaints.
➡️ Looking beneath the surface to find the real issues affecting your relationship.
➡️ How societal expectations shape our roles and interactions in relationships.
➡️ Practical advice for better communication and stronger connection with your partner.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Eric MacDougall:
I had a really good friend of mine, I'm gonna kind of keep his name out of it. But he is really into personal growth and he has a Facebook following. And he put a question on Facebook. And it was the question was directed to men, so it was men, what are some questions you have for women on the topic of love, courting and relationships? And then he said, you know, feel free to DM me if you don't want to drop your question here. And the comments like blew up, like it went nuts. You had men and women on there going. And one of the things that I realized through this, so first of all, there was a very limited amount of questions. 

Kate MacDougall
I think, people it was 124 comments on 

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and he put it up like yesterday, I think, oh, yeah, this guy's gotta pull the winner. Yeah. So. So one of the things is that that I recognized this was kind of going through because I put a question on there that I think would be a powerful question. But I realized that not a lot of men were on there asking questions, a lot of men were actually on there, kind of talking about their problem with women. And then women were on their kind of shooting back, essentially. And one of the things I recognized from this post was that, number one, and again, this is obviously a very limited, you know, type of man, I'm not saying this is a huge generalization, just based on the type of man that was posting in this specific comment. But it just seemed like guys were legit angry, like, guys were angry that they couldn't understand women. And, you know, there was this feeling. And I see this a lot in a lot of a lot of men, but it's like, we, it's almost like they want women to be easier. They're just like, why are they so confusing? Why can't they just answer our questions directly? When we ask them what they want? Why do they say I don't know? Why are they letting making us guess all the time, etc. And there was almost this, this feeling of these, some of these men were really pissed off, that being in relationship wasn't easier, if that makes sense. And then, you know, the women were, obviously some of them were poking back. And some people kind of thought about it in the comments, whatever. But there was some women who had saying, like, genuine things of like, we do what we want. And oftentimes, when we try to express it, you know, we have to express it exactly how you need to hear it, or else it's wrong, and etc, etc. And then we saw evidence of that reading the comments. Yeah, right. If even like, as the women were expressing what was on their heart, their minds, immediately, the men would start to kind of poke back and tell them how they're wrong, and what they're saying is wrong, etc. And so I just wanted to kind of open up this topic around, you know, I guess this whole idea of our society now and relationship now. And the work I'm talking about heterosexual relationships with men and women, and kind of how disconnected we are in terms of understanding each other because we're, like, in this massively individualistic society.

Kate MacDougall
Absolutely. I think I think this goes beyond men and women relationships. Like I think that humans in general, forget that there are other humans on this planet that are different from them. I think we live in a bubble where we think everyone around us is supposed to act like us think like us react like us. And so when somebody goes outside that box, you're kind of like, what is happening here? Like, you're not like me, and that makes me uncomfortable. I think that if you, you know, you think of the animal realm, right? If if you have a pack of wolves and one wolf steps out of line, they will beat him up or her up whatever, to get them back into line to be exactly like all the other wolves to follow the pack and to do their role in the pack, which is you don't you don't come off that role. Like if you're the hunter, you're the hunter, if you're the the you know, the one who takes care of the babies, you do that like so men and women, when it comes to like the animal kingdom, they have some very specific roles. And I think for us as humans, we've evolved our species into not necessarily having specific

Eric MacDougall
roles. Yeah, because I don't think we need like the pack to survive necessarily.

Kate MacDougall
No, like you could totally survive on your own. Is it the healthiest way to survive? No, because I think we still have some basic needs that need to be met. However, I think that our brain hasn't caught up to that yet. So we're still very much looking for direction looking for that like well, what's my role? Where do I fit in here? And so you try to stick with the people in your pack that are kind of more like you that kind of think the same as you that kind of do the same stuff as you like, if you're a business owner, you're probably not going to hang out with some guy who you know is unemployed who's not you know, motivated, who it'd be really hard for you to To like, understand his role and relate to his role versus your role in life, right? So I think it's the same in the men and women dynamic, like we have this idea as women of what men should be what role men should have in our lives. And I think men have this idea of the role that women should have in their lives. And then like not to get too deep into this, but then there's like, societal expectations and the way we were brought up and all of these things, right. And so all of a sudden, we have this society of people. And if you look at it, right, like, not too long ago, women had a very specific role. Women were to stay home, care for the children, make babies, and then care for those babies feed their husbands make sure they were happy. And that was a very specific gender specific rule. Like, very rarely would you see the average North American going off that track? Because that was the expectation

Eric MacDougall
1950s We're not staying home to take care of the kids who otherwise wouldn't work? No.

Kate MacDougall
And yeah, for the most part, like and then the expectation of a man was that he was going to go to work and provide for his family. Yeah, protect his family, and make sure the kids and you know, everyone kind of knows the history after the war, the women started going to work. And then they started feeling a little bit like, hey, we actually can have a role in this world. That's more than just, you know, being milk machines for babies and feminist movement. Yeah. So then now women now have a bigger place in society, they have, you know, they've given themselves more important bigger roles, that, you know, not to say that being a mother, and hats off to women and men who stay home full time, but you know, they've got different roles now. Well, I

Eric MacDougall
would say that it's not necessarily have different roles, I think they have more roles, more roles, there's a lot of women are still being full time moms are still the primary caretaker at home, and work full time.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And there's some people who still grew up in a home where, you know, for example, like I grew up in home, where my mom was a stay at home mom, because just financially, it was easier back then, to be able to do that. So my mom was a full time nurse, and she had that as a career. But once she had kids, it was decided that she would stay home with the kids. Because, one probably because of societal expectations, we probably kind of weird for my dad to like, quit his nine to five to go stay home. And like it was kind of more seen as normal for the woman to stay home back then why? Right? And so I think that, you know, the I grew up in a home where like, yeah, the woman was the one who cared much more for the kids. And so I've automatically given myself that rule whether I want it or not, as a woman, I've automatically given myself that rule that you know, I'm the one who's gonna have to be in charge of the kids, I'm gonna one who's gonna have to be more in charge of the home like, and in our home, those roles are. So weirdly disperse like as much as I have these like, innate, like, this is my job as a woman to do XYZ. You know, you're just as active, if not more in the cleaning of the home, you're just as active if not more in the kitchen. You're just as active if not more with the kids. And it's like, so I kind of like sit there sometimes and look at you and I'm like, Whoa, get back in line, like, this is my job. So I'm not wolf going like, beating you up to be like, Hey, kid, like, get back. That's not your role. You're the you're the gatherer, like Go Go and do your job.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I want to jump in here, because it's really important. You're saying, you know, sometimes this what used to happen was you used to feel quite insecure exactly what I used to do, right? You're like, Eric's doing all this stuff

Kate MacDougall
he's doing it makes me question myself as a woman, am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? Am

Eric MacDougall
I a bad wife?

Kate MacDougall
Am I a bad why I'm probably a bad wife. Because the idea of putting my head about being a wife is that I have to show up this specific way. And right now I'm not showing up. I feel like I'm making Eric clean the whole war. I'm making Eric go in the kitchen. I'm making Eric spend more time with the kids. And so I have this like, weird pressure on myself to like, be a different woman. Like be more active in the home. Kate be more, you know, home, Betty, what do you call the homemaker?

Eric MacDougall
Well, and yeah, and oftentimes, in those moments, you know, you kind of because in our relationship, like I like being in the kitchen, yeah, I like cleaning the house. I was raised by single mom that was modeled for me. She liked to clean home. So I was like, Man, I like this. I also feel great about cleaning my house,

Kate MacDougall
right? It's also a way for you to de stress.

Eric MacDougall
Exactly. That's what I mean. I mean, like, I enjoy it. Yeah. And so it's important understand that in that moment, you have two choices, you can essentially try to beat me down and try to get me to conform. Like you talked about the wolves, right. It's like I need Eric to do less. So I don't feel bad about my role, etc. In your lane. Sure, exactly. Or you could do the other thing, which is you could evolve in the ecosystem. This is the part we talked about right and coming back to kind of the men in the group because I do want to talk about this idea. I mean, the men On this post, oftentimes what happens is our first kind of go to defense is to try to get our outside circumstances to change, to help us feel more secure or comfortable, right. So if you think about a man who is in a relationship, and his partner is always challenging him to do more, to be better to step up to grow, whatever you want to call it, well, if that is threatening to the man, he, the first thing you'll do is not going to be like, Yeah, I'm going to grow, I'm going to be I'm going to be better, I'm going to evolve, I'm going to learn all these new skills, the first thing to do is to villainize his wife, to essentially tell her she's wrong to tell her she's doing, she's complaining, she's criticizing, etc, that's going to be his first go to, because it's much easier to try to change what's outside of you than it is to go within and change what's within you. And this is what I'm noticing now with any and I don't wanna say a lot of men here, I'm totally generalizing, but some men in the world that are just kind of butthurt, that, you know, women aren't just giving them all the answers and kind of bowing down to their feet and saying, like, hey, it's like, yes, women are complicated, and they will challenge you. Good. That's what you want, right? Instead of being like, you need to be easier for me, and you need to stop challenging me and you need to like, just accept me as exactly as I am. Maybe you should thank her for challenging you and lighting a fire under your ass. So you could grow your I mean, I say all the time, but like, in a lot of ways in our relationship, me kind of stepping up and owning my own, you know, challenges and my problems, all that stuff, and growing and continuing to evolve, has actually had you asked for more, right? You're at a place now where you asked me for way more than when I was a drunk alcoholic who was always angry. Because back then you didn't trust that I could do more? Yeah, surely why even bother asking I'm not gonna challenge him. But what happens is, if you have a partner who's challenging you, it's because she sees something in you that you might not even see yourself. So you should embrace that. And be like, Yeah, I want a woman who's gonna challenge me, I want a powerful woman, because then I can rise up to that. And so what I'm noticing, and this is kind of what I want to caution here to our listeners, is that if you're in a relationship, and your partner is challenging you, and it feels tough. Well, you need to essentially slow down and try to understand what your partner's telling you. Like, what are they seeing in you? Or what's the opportunity for you to grow here?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And sometimes it can be like an iceberg, right? Like, I'm sure everyone's kind of heard the iceberg analogy, where it's very easy to see the ice on top of the water, right, the big block of ice on top of the water. But you don't know how deep that iceberg runs, like some of them can be like kilometers under the water. Some of them can be like, a few feet. But there's things going on under the water. There's a whole ecosystem under that iceberg going on. So there's, yeah, there's the thing you see on the surface, there's what's your wife is telling you the words coming out of her mouth. That's the top of the iceberg. That's what you see, what is actually under that iceberg. What is the message she's trying to give you what is deeper than what she's saying, when she's like, I come home and you never do the dishes and you put the garbage out? And you always say this, and I'm always the one cleaning my room murmur. Like, yeah, okay. The iceberg is telling you, the top of the iceberg is telling me, she's pissed off about the dishes, I don't take the garbage out. I don't help with the dish, like, whatever. But there's something deeper than that. And I think that that's the complicated part that men hate trying to figure out is well, what is more like, what is that complicated part. And I think that even as women and as men too, like, it's really hard for you to go within, and to go up to your spouse and be like, Hey, I'm feeling super overwhelmed. I'm feeling overworked. And I'm extremely tired, and I need your help. Like, when you're feeling like, rah, you're in your amygdala brain, you're in the front part of your brain. And you're like, in panic mode, or angry mode, whatever. Like, you're not thinking straight, it's hard for you to connect with that emotional side of the brain, which is way on the other side of your head. And so now you're like having to, like, connect those two things to then be like, Oh, no, let me let me talk from my emotional part like No, right now. I'm pissed off. So it's going to come out, oh, cricket, and it's going to come out all weird. And as a spouse, I hope that you can see what's under that iceberg. under the surface.

Eric MacDougall
Well, and this is what we talk a lot about is this is what the skills are about, right? And we talked about this idea of the vulnerability threshold. But essentially, when you're above it, it's all like circumstantial. It's all you don't do the dishes, you this, you that this, you that, etc, right? We're talking about things outside of ourselves, or a partner is talking about things outside of yourself, in the same way that maybe he was a husband is like, Why can't my wife just give me a break, she's always complaining, she's on her phone, whatever, like you have your outside complaints as well. That's all above the vulnerability threshold. Now, you have to learn to go below that which is like what you're talking about the iceberg. You have to learn to understand what's below the surface. If you can't do that, you need to learn some new skills. Because you're just gonna keep having the same argument that doesn't make sense to you. So one of the things that I often tell men is like, if you're like, Well, my wife so confusing, like why she's so confusing, and my answer is always well, because you haven't learned to understand her. Yeah. And like, it's that's the only language Yeah, like and it's a Well, why do I have to learn to speak your language, it's like you don't have to, you can literally keep doing what you're doing, you can keep being just a confused guy in relationship was just pissed off all the time. Yeah, that is absolutely an option for your life, you can do that until you're dead. Plenty guys do that. But if you want to do something different, you could learn to understand her language. And you could learn to be more curious and learn what's below the surface. And this is where like a lot of men get tripped up is when your partner comes to you and maybe says, like, Oh, you're you know, you're never do the dishes, because I was mess bla bla bla, if immediately you start making that about you, you can't possibly understand her. If you're like, My wife hates me, she thinks I'm lazy. I'm not lazy. Here's all the reasons I'm not lazy. And then you need to get into defensive, you're already lost, you're not going to see under the iceberg. All you're seeing is like, why is this iceberg trying to seek my ship? Exactly.

Kate MacDougall
So I think honestly, like, the big question at the beginning, right? Why are men so angry at women, and honestly, I think women are angry at men too. It's because we're not taking the time to understand each other, nor are we giving each other grace to be like, Hey, we are going through a huge shift as human beings like we are, our brain cannot keep up with the society that we're creating. So it's going to take years and years of evolution for our brains to catch up. So we're gonna have to help it along, by being more patient by being more understanding by trying to see what's under that iceberg. Like, by really giving your partner grace and or just men and women in general grace, like, we don't talk the same language, we don't act the same way, we're not going to react to things the same way. So I think that, you know, in a general sense, if we can all just be a little more patient with one another, a little more kind. If we can ask for clarifications, not be afraid to ask questions, not be afraid to, you know, hey, this is what I'm understanding, can you you know, am I right? Or can you? Can you keep explaining? Because I am not completely understanding what you're saying? Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
one of the simple questions I often ask when people are you can tell if they're struggling, they're getting frustrated. And I'm kind of asking questions. Sometimes I just stop and say, Hey, what is it that you want me to understand that you don't think I understand? Right? And then just with that question, now they have to kind of reflect and be like, What is my point? Like? What do I want to convince Eric of?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, right. Because also, we need to because we we, personally, are all on always on the defensive of like, where do I fit in? How do I fit in? And why is this person in my lane, get out of my lane, and we're like that wolf always trying to like, keep, you know, the pack as it is, we're no longer in wolf pack, we have to accept that. And I think that the most important thing that we can do as humans right now is just to accept that people are going to come in and out of our lanes. And you know, when people come in our lanes, help them accept that they're there, you know, like, it doesn't it's not your way or the highway, there are different ways to work in a kitchen to clean a house. There's a relationship. No, exactly. Like, there's different ways to do everything. So when your partner comes in your lane, allow them to come in your lane, invite them into your lane, thank them for being there. And honestly, maybe step out for a bit and take a break, like try another lane, you might enjoy it more like when our identity is being questioned, don't get threatened. Just go along with it.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, I want to add on this because I often want to encourage people, and I encourage people in the group all the time in the Facebook group, like you always want to seek to understand before trying to be understood, you know, that actually puts you in a in a really kind of a power move to open up and try to put the spotlight on the person to understand them and have them open up. Right, that's actually really great. And once you actually think about it, you know, one of the things is, when you're debating, it's because you believe that only one truth exists, right? And that's how you get into debates. So until people think that their truth is the truth, they just debate, no debate till they're blue in the face. But when you can really believe that two truths can coexist at the same time, well, then you step into understanding. And this is what I see a lot. You know, for me in conversation on Facebook, when I'm talking, I talk to a lot of people. And I'm always at a place of, we could have different opinions, and they can both exist at the same time. And as soon as I believe that and I step into that, then I'm not worried about defending my point or proving my point, I actually step into trying to understand the other person on a deeper level. And usually through that conversation, we feel much more connected.